Voices from the Dust: July 1996
previous: Voices from the Dust: June 1996
from Melissa Zavala (z█████@b███████.████.edu)
1 Jul 96, 9:35 a.m.
First of all, I enjoyed your site, I actually find myself coming to visit often, reading different things each time. Also, I am mormon, and I wasn't raised in the church, actually we all were converted, but I am the only one left that really still attends. It seems to me that people always think about the weird things, or the "Did you here about this..." instead of what it really is. I am not a bad person, I do not have people tell me what to do with out being able to make a choice for myself, and I am not out there searching for some man to marry me. Even though transfering to BYU is in the near future. I do like your site, but I just wish some of it wasn't as negative, and bring out the goo dpoints, instead of the bad you have see.
Why am I reminded of the woman I know who thought Schindler's List was an okay movie, but couldn't see why they had to show all those Jews getting killed? There are plenty of folks on the Web dishing out the sweetness and light in regards to the Mormon Church, and I don't feel any particular need to contribute on that end. My job is to tell it like I saw it.
Besides, you're more entertained here in the grubby bar than you are in those sparkling ice-cream parlors, admit it. The cynicism is part of the charm. ;)
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
1 Jul 96, 6:41 p.m.
Your WWW pages about your Mormon experiences have just cost me an afternoon at work hiding what I was doing and pretending to work, whilst not sniggering too loudly to attract attention. I am presently at the John MacEnroe (anyone remember him?) stage of disengagement from Mormonism (you know, the one when you start to say "You cannot be SERIOUS" when hearing all the official lines), and this is a time when you start to take things all a bit too seriously. Your pages were a perfect antidote to that. Thank you.
I don't know what it's like in the States (actually, that's not quite true. I've spent some time there even...shock horror gasp...in your beloved Kaysville. Come to think of it, we had a missionary from there serving here...)
..but there is a sort of triple-think going on. I joined the church as a convert listening to the missionaries but thinking in my heart of hearts that no-one could _really_ take it literally and seriously. Of course, they would say they did, but...
I then realised that, yup, they sure did take it seriously. More here than in the USA (you haven't seen fanatics until you've met a Brit Mormon True Believer.) This concerned me, but what the hell, its their life, so long as they leave me mine.
As I got further in though, I realised that almost everyone (I don't know Gordon Hinckley that well, so I can't speak about him) has mentally got their fingers crossed when in testimony bearing mode. Everyone has their "up to a point" point where the reservations click in.
And then..well, there's a story about my brush with mormon bureaucracy that is almost as complex as yours. (But I've got two GA's in mine. So there.) That led me to the realisation that the sky was not going to fall if I started saying (to myself, and sotto voce of course) that some of the things I was being asked to say were...er...silly. I just wish I had the courage to say so more publicly.
Thanks again for the pages. If they've only helped restore my sanity and sense of proportion, they have been more than worthwhile. I will keep watching for more.
Thanks for the validation, and good luck in your continued disengagement. (I loved the John McEnroe line, by the way.) I'm sure everyone here would be interested in hearing more about your tangle with the bureaucracy, so consider this an arm twist. Hope to hear from you again.
from Elder Michael Reed Gregersen (m████████████████@w██.███.com)
2 Jul 96, 1:51 a.m.
Bill this is your old missionary companion Michael Gregersen. We were companions in Wenatchee remember. I am very impressed with the the special effects of your home page. The coffee beans are really nice. However, I must admit I was surprized about the purpose of your content. I always thought you were one of the best missionary companions that I ever had. I was impressed with your humility and sincerity. There are many things that I disagree with about the LDS faith. However, I do no that the Book of Mormon is true. I surprized that you are so far removed from this. I am wondering if you still believe in the book of Mormon of you only believe in the bible or if you are now agnostic or atheist. I am not critisizing you I merely hope that you will some day remember why you lived in an appartment in Wenatchee and what the purpose of that experience is all about. Bill you are very gifted and I always wished that I had the ability to play the piano as you. The LDS Church is not perfect Bill but neither are you. I hope that you will some day find what you are looking for. I would love to hear from you or I will write you again I will probably be changing my ISP so I will not be at the same address. So what do your parents think about your decision to get away from the church? If I know your father he is probably not happy. Bill your story about calling in the bomb threat on the plane is a good example of how people can be influeced by organizations. This influence is not always correct. However it does not neccessarily mean that the church is wrong because of it. My question is Bill is the book of Mormon Still true or is it only a book in your mind? Have you become a born again coffee drinking Christian? Bill you were always a good missionary companion. To me you were the epitome of one who is Christlike. You never thought of yourself you seemed to often be thinking of the needs of others. I always remembered that you treated me as if I were an important person. You never critisized anyone. You were very humble. Is it possible that an experience such as divorce or otherwise has caused you to as you say "apostasize" from the church. What is it that has effected your life so besides an airplane experience in Canada.
It's good to hear from you, Greg, though I wish we could chat about easier things. My apostasy was a cumulative thing, which I'll someday continue chronicling, but for now I'll tackle your short questions. No, I don't believe in the Book of Mormon anymore. I always had doubts about its veracity, but those are the kinds of things you squelch when you're a missionary and trying to please God and society. I'm not a Christian, either, though I do tipple the occasional cuppa joe. I guess I'm pretty much agnostic at the moment. I've never been divorced, because I've never been married.
I may be fooling myself, Greg, but I like to think that beneath this gruff exterior I'm still pretty much the same person I was when you and I were companions. I still think you're important, and I hope we can keep in touch and stay friends. You were a good companion to die with. Be cool.
from Adam Anderson (c███████████@l██.com)
2 Jul 96, 11:16 p.m.
Nice story. It took me three days to read the "Terror..." but I did it. I can relate with you a little bit as far as missions go. I just finished a mission to Guatemala where I had my fair share of experiences. i.e. 3rd world emergency rooms, run-ins with 'know-it-all' members of the not so hierarchy, etc. Nothing to match yours, though. Thanks for the entertainment. I'm also the oldest of 8 and understand quite well (I believe) where you're coming from. Interesting experiences. One last thing. How much do the Canadians actually use the intellectualy stimulating phrase, 'eh'? From your narrative, it's not much. That was the question that crossed my mind. I'd appreciate a response although I realize that my comments aren't clever, witty, or catchy enough to merit even finishing them.
Do you mean you didn't bother finishing writings your letter, or that you don't think I'll bothering reading it all the way through? Well, I did, and I think you shouldn't be so hard on your self, eh?
I actually heard "eh?" a lot more in the more rural areas of Alberta than I did in Calgary itself. Besides, it's such a cliché that you don't want to overdo it in a story like mine. I mean, it's hard enough to believe as it stands. :)
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
3 Jul 96, 4:27 a.m.
Given your description of mormon life, I would be utterly relieved that you have been saved from such an oppressive and unhappy existence.
However, my own story differs slightly.
I was raised along with four brothers and two sisters by bright and loving mormon parents. My mission to Argentina was a cultural and spiritual awakening. I married a witty, brilliant, and beautiful professional woman who (gasp!) decided to put her career on hold to devote her exceptional motherly skills full-time to our four wonderful children. Our home is a sanctuary of giggling children, friendship, and affection. My church calling keeps me very busy but affords me great spiritual satisfaction. I relish the peaceful assurance in my heart that my family is eternal, that God lives, and that there is divine purpose in our existence.
Should I one day choose to disregard the principles that have made such a life possible, I may also do as you and eschew my prior convictions in hope of softening the pain of my loss.
As for now, I'll strive to repent of my shortcomings and cherish my faith rather than succumb to my weakness and cling to the shallow comfort of disbelief.
Ouch, the Stepford Husband has pierced me to my heart. Hey, here's the difference between me and the hypothetical apostate you: I don't miss it. It was the Church itself which prompted me to eschew my convictions. That venerable institution may be a source of happiness for you, but it was a font of misery for me, and I'm happy to have set my back to it. Capisce?
from Curtis Blanco (c████████████@o██.███.com)
3 Jul 96, 5:50 p.m.
Wow! what a mission story. I was surfing under keyword mormon when I read, "mormon missionary turns apostate" or something like that, curious I visited your site. What a coincodence when I saw that you and I went to the same mission. I from 1977 to 1979, I got home just a few days before 1980. Unlike you I have kept my testimony. You are quite a writer, your story comes across as if it has been professionally written. You may be a professional writer by now for all I know. Anyway your story made for some pretty interesting reading. If your into mathmatics I can show you some pretty interesting stuff I've come up with. Why exactly did you stop believing? You're quite a writer, later.
I'm into math, yeah. I have a computer science degree. Would you by any chance be planning on teaching me how to use partial differential equations, because that's the class I could never get past.
(And yes, I'm a professional writer "by now." People, let's pay a little more attention, shall we? It says so right in the preface to Terror on Flight 789. And if you want to check out my bibliography, why, please do.)
from Jerry Erbe (e██████@a█.net)
5 Jul 96, 1:58 a.m.
I am an avid reader of Science fiction books. Are you published? If so, under what name?
I'm still pondering some thoughts concerning your Web page, I'll let you know when it gels into an intelligent or at least semi-intelligent thought.
from the reader formerly known as Elder Finn (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
5 Jul 96, 9:39 p.m.
Bill to say the least, I'm blown away to read your I mean our story on the net.
Bill I'm sorry that you had to go through that.
Well, blow me down! Elder! Howzit hanging? Hey, I can't be too unhappy over the whole episode, what with all the mileage I've gotten out of it, but thanks for the thought.
There must be a million Netizens out there waiting to hear what's up with you these days. So -- what's up with you these days?
from David Grygla (d██████@c████████.███.edu)
8 Jul 96, 4:10 p.m.
Too bad you let the hypocricy inevitable on a mission sour your taste for the church. Have you given up Christianity completely, or is it just the Mormon variety you gave up? I agree with most of your definitions, in theory, but it isn't that way for everyone. You ought to reconsider if you're judging Mormon culture as the Gospel of Jesus Christ (big difference...)
ps. is that Flake kid from Snowflake, AZ?
Oh, please. It wasn't the hypocrisy of the mission field that drove me out of the Church -- it was the absurdity of the doctrine, which served as the hammer pounding this square peg into a teensy round hole. (The general shadiness of the General Authorities didn't help, either, of course . . .)
P.S. No, "that Flake kid" is from Fresno.
from Ginny Hammell (h██████@n██████.████.edu)
11 Jul 96, 1:05 p.m.
Why do you accept without a challenge the "M" defense (I'm glad I had was brought up with good values, or strong familty or whatever). These people, with your comfort and support, are perpetuating the notion that no other religion does that. I wish that you would direct those types to look to any serious Christian (main-stream, not the weirdos) congregation and you will see the same values of honesty, hard-work etc, WITHOUT the cult type over-lay. The Amish, are an extreme, no doubt, but at least are Christian. I understand that they, like the Mennonites, do not allow their adult children to "join" unless those children (say 18 or 20?) have "tasted" the "English" (the Amish word for non-Amish) world. Interesting huh? You can't find people more painfully honest and hard working and other-serving than the Quakers (but they don't allow prosletyzing). So, please give up the "its a good life style" argument. So is humanitarianism.
So is vegetarianism, for that matter, but big deal? I don't recall anyone saying that only Mormons promote that political catchphrase of "good family values." The fact is, you could do a lot worse than Mormonism if that's the kind of lifestyle you're looking for -- as long as you go into it with your eyes open, doctrinally. I mean, at least Mormons are smart enough to take sick kids to the doctor, unlike the misnamed Christian "Scientists." And at least they use electricity, unlike the Amish.
(Was I just sticking up for Mormons? What is the world coming to?)
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
12 Jul 96, 2:07 a.m.
I have lived in Utah my entire life, and I would like to share an "insider's" perspective on the local culture.
Growing up in Utah as a non-Mormon has been very trying. High school was especially difficult. I was often approached by well-intentioned students who were instructed by their seminary teachers to bring students of other religions to seminary. This pervasive practice never succeeded in bringing me to the seminary class, but it did succeed in making me and other religious minorities feel discriminated.
My older brother, being more open minded, decided to attend one of these seminary classes. That day, the topic was about "dating non-Mormons." He returned home extremely upset. The instructor had taught the Mormon students (who represented over 90% of the student body) not to date non-Mormons because in his words "Non-Mormons aren't bad, they're just wrong."
The Mormon Church has clearly violated the constitution by allowing seminary buildings to be built inside high school campuses, and the Utah education system has wrongly allowed students to use daily class time to attend these religious practices during school. I once asked my H.S. counselor if I could use "release time" (the class period used for church) to read in the library or practice piano. I was told that "release time" could only be used for seminary, not other activities.
These constitutional violations are not near as bad as the effect that religious discrimination has on young people in an age when "fitting in is everything." Something needs to be done about this damaging religious practice and ethnocentric attitude.
I sympathize -- though, as far as I know, seminary buildings are constructed adjacent to high school campuses, not directly on them. Also, students of other religions are permitted to use released time to study their own faiths. The Catholics, for instance, taught seminary classes near my high school -- though attendance was, of course, miniscule.
The very real problem you point out, though, is the practice of allowing released time only for religious instruction. Released time should also be offered to, say, atheist students, or to students like you who want to study for an hour instead of learning dat Bible talk. (Schools outside of Utah do sometimes offer a "study hall" period, after all.)
Personally, I wish I could have skipped seminary and stayed in the band, or taken drama, or joined the debate team. My time would no doubt have been better spent.
from Brent Johnson (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
12 Jul 96, 3:25 p.m.
I am sorry that your views of the church are so negative, however, from what I have read, you seem to be a really nice person, and would like the chance to meet you IF our paths ever cross.
I am LDS, because I believe it to be true, even though I was raised in the church as well. It sounds like it was rather "thrusted" upon you, and I agree with you on one aspect; from birth to 19, it is rather indoctrinated; some families more so than others. I was fortuitous in the fact that I had the actual chance to prove to myself about the church, but that, as you say, is another story. I am not here to say "yay or nay" on your decision.
I just sent you an Email concerning if you ever have heard back from Elder Finn. There are several Web Pages on "people finders", both free and $$$. I am just curious if you have heard from him. If not, do YOU have any desire to hear from him?
Hey, I'd enjoy meeting or sitting down for lunch with any tolerant Mormon. I don't dislike the people (well, not all of them), just the edifice. You, Brent, seem perfectly pleasant, and I'm pleased that you don't seem to think I'm a big scaly monster with claws the size of bananas. (I try to keep my claws nicely trimmed, actually.)
And speak of the devil -- I got email from Elder Finn just a scant week before your own message arrived. I haven't chatted much with him yet, but I hope that changes soon.
from Captain Rock (c████████@a██.com)
17 Jul 96, 11:08 a.m.
I believe the Boyd K. Packer masturbation pamphlet that you offer as one of your links has been demonstrated to be a hoax. Never written by Packer. See letters page recent Sunstone Mag.
Since I don't have access to the Sunstone in question -- despite having published a poem once in those venerable pages -- I've gotten a little help on this one from my pal rpcman, who says the following:
"I also read this in Sunstone. It was written by Mark E. Peterson's family. (MEP was the author not BKP as Captain Rock incorrectly states). I threw it up for grabs on the ex-Mormon mailing list and two people responded that they knew for a certainty that the whack-off phamplet was legit as they received it soon after it was published. I then found an actual pamphlet on Chastity (in my Ward Clerk office) put out by MEP that had many similar items in it. So to make a long story short, although MEP's family thinks he didn't write it, he probably did and it probably is legit."
To add a thing or two from my own experience -- even if Mark E. Peterson didn't write that little instruction manual on how to avoid going blind, that didn't prevent mission presidents worldwide from embracing it like a fifth volume of canonized scripture. My own mission president, R. Sterling Spafford, used to hand out mimeographed copies of that very document to troubled missionaries. Say what you will, but its influence on Mormon morals and mores has certainly been pervasive.
(By the way, the conference address by Boyd K. Packer that rpcman points us toward has long been offered by the Church in pamphlet form to young holders of the Aaronic Priesthood. The image of that "little factory" inside my body has stayed with me for more than fifteen years.)
from Ginny Hammell (h███████@n██████.████.edu)
17 Jul 96, 11:12 a.m.
hurry up and finish the travelogue. Section III? don't you know what happens next?
How about an outline form...we don't need to know ALL of your thoughts, just a couple would keep the plot moving. great stuff. keep it up.
Okay, you've convinced me. I'll quit my job and work on the Web site full time. Will you be in charge of bringing me meals?
from Ginny Hammell (h███████@n██████.████.edu)
17 Jul 96, 11:16 a.m.
updated May 22? What, have you given up your calling?
Give us who have no time to find good interesting non-fiction something to read.
Also, I prefer calling it LSD...more appropriate for a wacko bunch who happen to think that just 'cause they live "good" lives the spriritual damage doesn't count.
Puhleez! Goes to show how inadequate main stream protestant religions are at educating their flocks...and how desperate most people remain for an all knowing and all directing "daddy" of some sort.
cheers, and GET BUSY WITH YOUR UPDATES.
Well, as you can glean from the fact that I'm writing this on October 25th, I'm just now beginning to get caught up on old email. Someday I may have time to write more "Apostasy" installments, but shouting at me won't make it happen any faster. (For those of you new to the 'Net, typing in all caps is considered to be shouting. It's also considered to be rude.)
In the meantime, if you're that hungry for non-fiction, get a subscription to Britannica Online and read the freaking encyclopedia. It doesn't have much plot, but the background detail is amazing.
from Amanda, Heiress to the Waffle House Throne (K██████████@t███.org)
18 Jul 96, 2:03 a.m.
I got a huge kick out of the Mormon jokes. When I was a kid, there was a family of nine Mormons living on my street. The little girls once told me that I was in cahoots with the devil because I was Catholic and my family owned a television set. They lived in a big two story house that they built themselves and took ten years to finish. They didn't have doors on the bedrooms or bathrooms. Their mother drove a big grey conversion van with a sticker that said "I Love BYU" on the back window, with a heart instead of the word 'love'. She once called me a harlot because I was wearing a bikini bathing suit (did I mention the fact that I was seven?)
When I was in Junior High, the big joke to play on the people that you hated was to call the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' 1-800 number and request that a Mormon bible be sent to their house and a visit from a missionary. Once, a band of Mormons were touring my neighborhood in a big bus with bicycles strapped on the back, and they were knocking on doors, the whole deal. Two of them came to my house, and when I answered the door, I immediately said "I'm a Jew, leave me alone." They said they came to save my soul, and I was like, "fucker, only Christ can do that, so get the hell off my doorstep before I get my dog on you." Enough of my Mormon stories. Have a nice day.
Um, is that an order?
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
20 Jul 96, 12:31 a.m.
I hope you're able to find this amongst the tons of mail that you apparently get from offended Mormons. I found your page (the little that I've read so far) to be very informative and very entertaining. I came across Mormon Matter as I was researching Mormonism in general, but it was their recruitment techniques that I was especially interested in. I was trying to find out what was so appealing about Mormonism to make my 43 yr old brother, who was born a Catholic, suddenly devote his entire life (if ya wanna call it a life) to becoming a Latter Day Saint. I personally don't give a shit about Lumpy's religious interests. It's my 72 yr old mother whom he dragged to his "dunking" that he's gotten all upset.
To get an idea of the kind of tact Lumpy possesses, when he invited his mother to his baptism she told him that he already was baptised, Lumpy's response: "Not the right way". I don't think I need to describe the effect that had on his Irish Catholic mother. As I said I really don't care what he does. Although I like the idea of him moving to Utah, a good 2,000 miles from NH. Is there much chance he'll do that? I skimmed over something, I think in your glossary, that mentioned 2 yr missions where they go away. Is that mandatory?
Oh, I almost forgot. Did you wear the long undies? I'd like to get Lumpy a pair for his birthday in August. Is there something special about them or are they just long johns that don't fit. I think getting him some of that underwear would be a good way to break the news to the rest of the family. Ya see where my mother is so humiliated by it we've kept it top secret.
Well thanks alot for all the info and for putting it in such an enjoyable format. I assumed that I'd being going through reams of dull Latter Day literature when I started this. I had no idea I'd be laughing all afternoon.
And that makes me wondering if you're not wasting a tremendous talent. Unless of course your're sci-fi has a humorous flair. Whatever, thanks again.
Sorry to hear about all the problems that, er, Lumpy is causing. It's my sad duty to inform you, though, that missions are not strictly mandatory, and Lumpy is probably not eligible anyway, because the Church doesn't send out men past their late twenties. (Not unless they've reached retirement age and are married, anyway.) For more info, you can review my glossary entry on missionaries.
About the long undies -- "garments," they're called. Only Mormons who have been through the endowment ceremony in the Temple get to wear them, and you generally don't get to go to the Temple until you've been a member for at least a year, so garments probably wouldn't be a good gift for Lumpy. Besides, run-of-the-mill long johns won't do; the garments are custom-made, and you can't buy them unless you have a temple recommend -- or in other words, a signed card that will get you into the Temple. (I hope this doesn't mean Lumpy will miss out on Christmas . . .)
Finally, if you're looking for a humorous SF story, try "Celestial Mechanics," a piece that appeared in the March issue of The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction. Thanks for writing.
from Ginny Hammell (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
20 Jul 96, 10:07 a.m.
updated on July 15? What rubbish! Where how what? i was reading the vault
Okay, I'm only going over this once, so pay close attention. Since today is October 25th, right now I'm about three months behind in updating my letters pages. Since I'm frequently way behind in updating my letters pages, the date on the most recent letter here will very rarely match up with the date at the bottom of the page. The pages in the Vault are even more out of synch than this one, because that's where I deposit old letters when this page gets to be longer than about sixty kilobytes.
What it boils down to, Ginny, is this -- just because your letter is dated July 20th, it doesn't mean that I posted it here the same day that it arrived. The dates on the individual letters indicate when they were sent to me. The date at the bottom of the page indicates the last time I added a letter at the top, no matter how old that letter might be. Do you begin to comprehend?
from Ginny Hammell (h███████@n██████.████.edu)
20 Jul 96, 10:10 a.m.
what updated on 7/15? I check this page regularly. Didn't those LSDers teach not to lie? Or can you lie to non-m-people?
First, read my response to your previous letter very carefully. Next, promise me that you won't call me a liar again unless you know what you're talking about. Finally, don't write to me anymore until you have something substantive to say. (I swear to God, even Job would have strangled you by now.)
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
21 Jul 96, 8:05 p.m.
Although I find your glossary of the Mormon pages somewhat entertaining and full of reasonable humor, I must ask.... Why, if you left the Mormon church, do you spend so much time creating this information. Don't you have better things to do? I am a member of the church and realize that some do not ever agree, or choose to alter their feeliong about its teachings, but it really surprises me how much effort is put into things such as this. Just a friendly question, help me understand.
My motto is: "Never trust a person who says, 'Help me understand.'" I've answered your "friendly" question numerous times already in these pages. Feel free to hunt for it.
from Ginny Hammell (h███████@n██████.████.edu)
22 Jul 96, 7:32 a.m.
for your friend and others who equate their well-founded disdain for Mormonism to all organized religions.
Many people do seek and have a need for a spirital connection. Others think, and I concur, that a spiritual "home" is good for children. Plus, their is a human need for participating in a community. To these folks I say, don't give up on God or organized religion. You will find another place that speaks to your spirital self.
I suggest checking out some likely churces (sans the kiddies, this is an adult decision). Keep in mind that as you look, you should avoid the other "daddy is right" kinds of places, that is exchanging one set of problems for another. Also, as Mormons are only marginally familiar with Christian teachings and ceremonies you need to be very clear about what your spirital needs are. Do you have non-moron neighbors who share your values and outlook on life ? where do they go to church. Are you moved by music, find out which churches have the most wonderful music program. Are you concerned about homelessness, find out which church as an "outreach" program that resonates with you. Then, go visit. And visit more than once. Keep in mind that you need to be open without being foolish. I think that, everything else being equal former m people would find most main stream protestant churches welcoming. Presbyterians are nice and simple...so are quakers, but quakers don't prosletyze. Methodists can, but don't always, tend to fire and brimstone. Me, I'm an Episcopalian. Our church does not at all look or smell like my gothic growing up parish. But my husband is very sensitive to art and architecture, so we picked a parish that is historicall accurate...and as he grew up Presby., one that is "low" church. I'd rather be in a parish we can walk to, but one makes these accommodations.
So, don't paint organized religion with the same brush. They, are, after-all, full of humans. Cheers and keep up the good work.
Hey, a substantive comment! I'm impressed! Unfortunately, I'm going to disagree with you. Fanaticism can spring from the soil of any religion, just as any religion can produce honest, humble, forthright exemplars of all that is good about faith. Mormons don't have a monopoly on zealots any more than they have one on good people. In fact, I'd say that if a strong sense of community is important to you in a religion, you could do a lot worse than Mormonism, and you'd be hard-pressed to do better.
Then again, you could just join the P.T.A. and avoid the religion question altogether. That's my vote.
from David Smith (d█████@s███.███.edu)
26 Jul 96, 1:24 p.m.
I commend you on your efforts. I would like to add a few of my experiences as a former/recovering Mormon. I think there is a time that we all need the black and white perspective that Mormonism offers. I do not mean this sarcastically. The problem is that Mormonism does not allow for the possibility of paradox. Your story about the art work of God is quite an anaology that can be used for many types of religeous issues. A couple of years after my conversion I left the church in order to continue my growth. Mormonism did not allow for the possibility of any truth exisiting outside of the church. My spirituality was stagnated by such black and white views. The article on the abortion pill is a prime example. I challenge any Mormon to read the article and still hold to a black and white perspective on "right and wrong"
Mormonism is rife with paradox, as are most religions. The need to satisfy both justice and mercy, to believe in the Book of Mormon when there's no physical evidence, to not kill your children when you could ensure them entry to the Celestial Kingdom, &c. I could go on for hours. I don't know what you're getting at.
Besides which, the Mormon Church does teach that there is truth outside itself. It teaches that other churches have pieces of the truth, though none but itself has the whole picture. It also encourages education among its members, which is certainly a pursuit of truth beyond the walls of faith. I hate to start sounding like an apologist for the L.D.S. Church, but if you're going to disagree with something, disagree with it intelligently. Understand it first.
(And what "story about the art work of God" are you talking about?)
from Randi (k█████@s██████.com)
26 Jul 96, 10:18 p.m.
How sad that you allow yourself to remain so bitter for so long. Get on with your life!
Yeah, I'm sure you're crying big fat tears for me. Jeez, these days I'm practically more bitter about people who tell me to get a life than I am about my years in the Mormon Church. What's happening to me?!
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
27 Jul 96, 1:45 a.m.
I read most of your writings on the mormon religion and, guess what you are know different than almost every apostate I have ever heard of from any religion. You have a very bitter and one sided point of view, and instead of tearing down this church maybe you should found out what you don't understand about first. Then pray to what ever god you believe in and see what he tells you about it. Having gone on an LDS mission you must of had some feeling that the church you doing this work for had some truth to you? I can tell that you we're converted so to speak to the democratic party way of thinking, from the time you spent in Seattle which is about the most liberal area is this country. I know I had the misfortune of living there for 6 years. I don't mean to be rude of course, but I can't stand the way they thy to force to conform with there beliefs. I alread know you will say ahah!! that what mormon's do to, but ahah!! your wrong I have many mormon friends and grew up with mormon and they never tried to push there beliefs on me, as a matter of fact I feel that most of them we're good examples to me, so if you remember anything at all that I right here remember this "The Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect in its entirity, the members are not perfect only striving for it." so you need to remember that we are not asked to be perfect on to strive for perfection with knowledge that the attonment of our Savior Jesus Christ will cover for us in the end as long as we have repented and come to him with a broken heart and a contrite spirt. Only though him will be able to obtain our rewards in heaven and on earth. So please try to be more objective in you writings, instead of showing the bitterness that fills your heart for that pains me to think that someone could be some bitter about anything.
The Democrats tried to force you to conform? What did they do -- strap you down and chant "It's good to tax and spend" in your ear? Dragoon you into marching for social reform and abortion rights? You were living in a Seattle of the mind, pal, not in the real world. (And if this is the typical level of literacy and credulity among Republicans, then it's no wonder Rush Limbaugh has so many disciples.)
As a complete aside, I find it fascinating that some people are struck by the humorous aspects of my Web site, and others by the bitterness. I guess it's all in what you bring to it, eh?
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
29 Jul 96, 10:37 a.m.
I love your pages. I plan to read the whole bombing odyssey again.
At last! A voice of taste and perceptiveness!
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
29 Jul 96, 2:13 p.m.
Hi I think your web page is great. It offers a comfortable insight to your opinions on the Mormons without beeing too pushy.
Seeing that you are a sci-fi writer as well, I wonder "Have you ever considered Scientology?"
Considered Scientology as in "considered joining it"? Or as in "considered how it fucks people up even worse than most religions do"? Let's not forget that L. Ron Hubbard was, indeed, a writer of science fiction -- and a gifted one, in that he always knew how to write a story he could sell, and how to sell it for the most money he could. In that light, I can only regard Dianetics as the ultimate triumph of his imagination. And I repeat -- his imagination.
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/07/voices-from-the-dust-july-1996.html)
30 Jul 96, 6:50 p.m.
My thanks for your considered and thoughtful ruminations - I was an atheist before testing the promise in Moroni. Shucks and darn it, my prayers were answered. It has been 22+ years now and life remains good and I have full free agency and the chance to grow as a person intellectually, spiritually, socially (and all the appropriate "illys" yet remaining).
I am sorry you seem to be missing the core of the Gospel here within the Church and the Gospel. It's good to learn others views and use them to strengthen core beliefs. Thank you again, and God bless :-)
Oh, I'm not missing it a bit. I'm glad you're happy, but that for me is sort of like watching through a restaurant window as you enjoy a fine meal of liver and bratwurst. You may like it, but it doesn't tempt me inside.
