Why am I reminded of the woman I know who thought Schindler's List was an okay movie, but couldn't see why they had to show all those Jews getting killed? There are plenty of folks on the Web dishing out the sweetness and light in regards to the Mormon Church, and I don't feel any particular need to contribute on that end. My job is to tell it like I saw it.
Besides, you're more entertained here in the grubby bar than you are in those sparkling ice-cream parlors, admit it. The cynicism is part of the charm. ;)
I don't know what it's like in the States (actually, that's not quite true. I've spent some time there even...shock horror gasp...in your beloved Kaysville. Come to think of it, we had a missionary from there serving here...)
..but there is a sort of triple-think going on. I joined the church as a convert listening to the missionaries but thinking in my heart of hearts that no-one could _really_ take it literally and seriously. Of course, they would say they did, but...
I then realised that, yup, they sure did take it seriously. More here than in the USA (you haven't seen fanatics until you've met a Brit Mormon True Believer.) This concerned me, but what the hell, its their life, so long as they leave me mine.
As I got further in though, I realised that almost everyone (I don't know Gordon Hinckley that well, so I can't speak about him) has mentally got their fingers crossed when in testimony bearing mode. Everyone has their "up to a point" point where the reservations click in.
And then..well, there's a story about my brush with mormon bureaucracy that is almost as complex as yours. (But I've got two GA's in mine. So there.) That led me to the realisation that the sky was not going to fall if I started saying (to myself, and sotto voce of course) that some of the things I was being asked to say were...er...silly. I just wish I had the courage to say so more publicly.
Thanks again for the pages. If they've only helped restore my sanity and sense of proportion, they have been more than worthwhile. I will keep watching for more.
Thanks for the validation, and good luck in your continued disengagement. (I loved the John McEnroe line, by the way.) I'm sure everyone here would be interested in hearing more about your tangle with the bureaucracy, so consider this an arm twist. Hope to hear from you again.
It's good to hear from you, Greg, though I wish we could chat about easier things. My apostasy was a cumulative thing, which I'll someday continue chronicling, but for now I'll tackle your short questions. No, I don't believe in the Book of Mormon anymore. I always had doubts about its veracity, but those are the kinds of things you squelch when you're a missionary and trying to please God and society. I'm not a Christian, either, though I do tipple the occasional cuppa joe. I guess I'm pretty much agnostic at the moment. I've never been divorced, because I've never been married.
I may be fooling myself, Greg, but I like to think that beneath this gruff exterior I'm still pretty much the same person I was when you and I were companions. I still think you're important, and I hope we can keep in touch and stay friends. You were a good companion to die with. Be cool.
Do you mean you didn't bother finishing writings your letter, or that you don't think I'll bothering reading it all the way through? Well, I did, and I think you shouldn't be so hard on your self, eh?
I actually heard "eh?" a lot more in the more rural areas of Alberta than I did in Calgary itself. Besides, it's such a cliché that you don't want to overdo it in a story like mine. I mean, it's hard enough to believe as it stands. :)
However, my own story differs slightly.
I was raised along with four brothers and two sisters by bright and loving mormon parents. My mission to Argentina was a cultural and spiritual awakening. I married a witty, brilliant, and beautiful professional woman who (gasp!) decided to put her career on hold to devote her exceptional motherly skills full-time to our four wonderful children. Our home is a sanctuary of giggling children, friendship, and affection. My church calling keeps me very busy but affords me great spiritual satisfaction. I relish the peaceful assurance in my heart that my family is eternal, that God lives, and that there is divine purpose in our existence.
Should I one day choose to disregard the principles that have made such a life possible, I may also do as you and eschew my prior convictions in hope of softening the pain of my loss.
As for now, I'll strive to repent of my shortcomings and cherish my faith rather than succumb to my weakness and cling to the shallow comfort of disbelief.
Ouch, the Stepford Husband has pierced me to my heart. Hey, here's the difference between me and the hypothetical apostate you: I don't miss it. It was the Church itself which prompted me to eschew my convictions. That venerable institution may be a source of happiness for you, but it was a font of misery for me, and I'm happy to have set my back to it. Capisce?
I'm into math, yeah. I have a computer science degree. Would you by any chance be planning on teaching me how to use partial differential equations, because that's the class I could never get past.
(And yes, I'm a professional writer "by now." People, let's pay a little more attention, shall we? It says so right in the preface to Terror on Flight 789. And if you want to check out my bibliography, why, please do.)
I'm still pondering some thoughts concerning your Web page, I'll let you know when it gels into an intelligent or at least semi-intelligent thought.
<tearing out clumps of hair> Go directly to my bibliography. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
Bill I'm sorry that you had to go through that.
Well, blow me down! Elder! Howzit hanging? Hey, I can't be too unhappy over the whole episode, what with all the mileage I've gotten out of it, but thanks for the thought.
There must be a million Netizens out there waiting to hear what's up with you these days. So -- what's up with you these days?
ps. is that Flake kid from Snowflake, AZ?
Oh, please. It wasn't the hypocrisy of the mission field that drove me out of the Church -- it was the absurdity of the doctrine, which served as the hammer pounding this square peg into a teensy round hole. (The general shadiness of the General Authorities didn't help, either, of course . . .)
P.S. No, "that Flake kid" is from Fresno.
So is vegetarianism, for that matter, but big deal? I don't recall anyone saying that only Mormons promote that political catchphrase of "good family values." The fact is, you could do a lot worse than Mormonism if that's the kind of lifestyle you're looking for -- as long as you go into it with your eyes open, doctrinally. I mean, at least Mormons are smart enough to take sick kids to the doctor, unlike the misnamed Christian "Scientists." And at least they use electricity, unlike the Amish.
(Was I just sticking up for Mormons? What is the world coming to?)
Growing up in Utah as a non-Mormon has been very trying. High school was especially difficult. I was often approached by well-intentioned students who were instructed by their seminary teachers to bring students of other religions to seminary. This pervasive practice never succeeded in bringing me to the seminary class, but it did succeed in making me and other religious minorities feel discriminated.
My older brother, being more open minded, decided to attend one of these seminary classes. That day, the topic was about "dating non-Mormons." He returned home extremely upset. The instructor had taught the Mormon students (who represented over 90% of the student body) not to date non-Mormons because in his words "Non-Mormons aren't bad, they're just wrong."
The Mormon Church has clearly violated the constitution by allowing seminary buildings to be built inside high school campuses, and the Utah education system has wrongly allowed students to use daily class time to attend these religious practices during school. I once asked my H.S. counselor if I could use "release time" (the class period used for church) to read in the library or practice piano. I was told that "release time" could only be used for seminary, not other activities.
These constitutional violations are not near as bad as the effect that religious discrimination has on young people in an age when "fitting in is everything." Something needs to be done about this damaging religious practice and ethnocentric attitude.
I sympathize -- though, as far as I know, seminary buildings are constructed adjacent to high school campuses, not directly on them. Also, students of other religions are permitted to use released time to study their own faiths. The Catholics, for instance, taught seminary classes near my high school -- though attendance was, of course, miniscule.
The very real problem you point out, though, is the practice of allowing released time only for religious instruction. Released time should also be offered to, say, atheist students, or to students like you who want to study for an hour instead of learning dat Bible talk. (Schools outside of Utah do sometimes offer a "study hall" period, after all.)
Personally, I wish I could have skipped seminary and stayed in the band, or taken drama, or joined the debate team. My time would no doubt have been better spent.
I am LDS, because I believe it to be true, even though I was raised in the church as well. It sounds like it was rather "thrusted" upon you, and I agree with you on one aspect; from birth to 19, it is rather indoctrinated; some families more so than others. I was fortuitous in the fact that I had the actual chance to prove to myself about the church, but that, as you say, is another story. I am not here to say "yay or nay" on your decision.
I just sent you an Email concerning if you ever have heard back from Elder Finn. There are several Web Pages on "people finders", both free and $$$. I am just curious if you have heard from him. If not, do YOU have any desire to hear from him?
Hey, I'd enjoy meeting or sitting down for lunch with any tolerant Mormon. I don't dislike the people (well, not all of them), just the edifice. You, Brent, seem perfectly pleasant, and I'm pleased that you don't seem to think I'm a big scaly monster with claws the size of bananas. (I try to keep my claws nicely trimmed, actually.)
And speak of the devil -- I got email from Elder Finn just a scant week before your own message arrived. I haven't chatted much with him yet, but I hope that changes soon.
Since I don't have access to the Sunstone in question -- despite having published a poem once in those venerable pages -- I've gotten a little help on this one from my pal rpcman, who says the following:
"I also read this in Sunstone. It was written by Mark E. Peterson's family. (MEP was the author not BKP as Captain Rock incorrectly states). I threw it up for grabs on the ex-Mormon mailing list and two people responded that they knew for a certainty that the whack-off phamplet was legit as they received it soon after it was published. I then found an actual pamphlet on Chastity (in my Ward Clerk office) put out by MEP that had many similar items in it. So to make a long story short, although MEP's family thinks he didn't write it, he probably did and it probably is legit."
To add a thing or two from my own experience -- even if Mark E. Peterson didn't write that little instruction manual on how to avoid going blind, that didn't prevent mission presidents worldwide from embracing it like a fifth volume of canonized scripture. My own mission president, R. Sterling Spafford, used to hand out mimeographed copies of that very document to troubled missionaries. Say what you will, but its influence on Mormon morals and mores has certainly been pervasive.
(By the way, the conference address by Boyd K. Packer that rpcman points us toward has long been offered by the Church in pamphlet form to young holders of the Aaronic Priesthood. The image of that "little factory" inside my body has stayed with me for more than fifteen years.)
How about an outline form...we don't need to know ALL of your thoughts, just a couple would keep the plot moving. great stuff. keep it up.
Okay, you've convinced me. I'll quit my job and work on the Web site full time. Will you be in charge of bringing me meals?
Give us who have no time to find good interesting non-fiction something to read.
Also, I prefer calling it LSD...more appropriate for a wacko bunch who happen to think that just 'cause they live "good" lives the spriritual damage doesn't count.
Puhleez! Goes to show how inadequate main stream protestant religions are at educating their flocks...and how desperate most people remain for an all knowing and all directing "daddy" of some sort.
cheers, and GET BUSY WITH YOUR UPDATES.
Well, as you can glean from the fact that I'm writing this on October 25th, I'm just now beginning to get caught up on old email. Someday I may have time to write more "Apostasy" installments, but shouting at me won't make it happen any faster. (For those of you new to the 'Net, typing in all caps is considered to be shouting. It's also considered to be rude.)
In the meantime, if you're that hungry for non-fiction, get a subscription to Britannica Online and read the freaking encyclopedia. It doesn't have much plot, but the background detail is amazing.
When I was in Junior High, the big joke to play on the people that you hated was to call the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' 1-800 number and request that a Mormon bible be sent to their house and a visit from a missionary. Once, a band of Mormons were touring my neighborhood in a big bus with bicycles strapped on the back, and they were knocking on doors, the whole deal. Two of them came to my house, and when I answered the door, I immediately said "I'm a Jew, leave me alone." They said they came to save my soul, and I was like, "fucker, only Christ can do that, so get the hell off my doorstep before I get my dog on you." Enough of my Mormon stories. Have a nice day.
Um, is that an order?
To get an idea of the kind of tact Lumpy possesses, when he invited his mother to his baptism she told him that he already was baptised, Lumpy's response: "Not the right way". I don't think I need to describe the effect that had on his Irish Catholic mother. As I said I really don't care what he does. Although I like the idea of him moving to Utah, a good 2,000 miles from NH. Is there much chance he'll do that? I skimmed over something, I think in your glossary, that mentioned 2 yr missions where they go away. Is that mandatory?
Oh, I almost forgot. Did you wear the long undies? I'd like to get Lumpy a pair for his birthday in August. Is there something special about them or are they just long johns that don't fit. I think getting him some of that underwear would be a good way to break the news to the rest of the family. Ya see where my mother is so humiliated by it we've kept it top secret.
Well thanks alot for all the info and for putting it in such an enjoyable format. I assumed that I'd being going through reams of dull Latter Day literature when I started this. I had no idea I'd be laughing all afternoon.
And that makes me wondering if you're not wasting a tremendous talent. Unless of course your're sci-fi has a humorous flair. Whatever, thanks again.
Sorry to hear about all the problems that, er, Lumpy is causing. It's my sad duty to inform you, though, that missions are not strictly mandatory, and Lumpy is probably not eligible anyway, because the Church doesn't send out men past their late twenties. (Not unless they've reached retirement age and are married, anyway.) For more info, you can review my glossary entry on missionaries.
About the long undies -- "garments," they're called. Only Mormons who have been through the endowment ceremony in the Temple get to wear them, and you generally don't get to go to the Temple until you've been a member for at least a year, so garments probably wouldn't be a good gift for Lumpy. Besides, run-of-the-mill long johns won't do; the garments are custom-made, and you can't buy them unless you have a temple recommend -- or in other words, a signed card that will get you into the Temple. (I hope this doesn't mean Lumpy will miss out on Christmas . . .)
Finally, if you're looking for a humorous SF story, try "Celestial Mechanics," a piece that appeared in the March issue of The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction. Thanks for writing.
Okay, I'm only going over this once, so pay close attention. Since today is October 25th, right now I'm about three months behind in updating my letters pages. Since I'm frequently way behind in updating my letters pages, the date on the most recent letter here will very rarely match up with the date at the bottom of the page. The pages in the Vault are even more out of synch than this one, because that's where I deposit old letters when this page gets to be longer than about sixty kilobytes.
What it boils down to, Ginny, is this -- just because your letter is dated July 20th, it doesn't mean that I posted it here the same day that it arrived. The dates on the individual letters indicate when they were sent to me. The date at the bottom of the page indicates the last time I added a letter at the top, no matter how old that letter might be. Do you begin to comprehend?
First, read my response to your previous letter very carefully. Next, promise me that you won't call me a liar again unless you know what you're talking about. Finally, don't write to me anymore until you have something substantive to say. (I swear to God, even Job would have strangled you by now.)
My motto is: "Never trust a person who says, 'Help me understand.'" I've answered your "friendly" question numerous times already in these pages. Feel free to hunt for it.
Many people do seek and have a need for a spirital connection. Others think, and I concur, that a spiritual "home" is good for children. Plus, their is a human need for participating in a community. To these folks I say, don't give up on God or organized religion. You will find another place that speaks to your spirital self.
I suggest checking out some likely churces (sans the kiddies, this is an adult decision). Keep in mind that as you look, you should avoid the other "daddy is right" kinds of places, that is exchanging one set of problems for another. Also, as Mormons are only marginally familiar with Christian teachings and ceremonies you need to be very clear about what your spirital needs are. Do you have non-moron neighbors who share your values and outlook on life ? where do they go to church. Are you moved by music, find out which churches have the most wonderful music program. Are you concerned about homelessness, find out which church as an "outreach" program that resonates with you. Then, go visit. And visit more than once. Keep in mind that you need to be open without being foolish. I think that, everything else being equal former m people would find most main stream protestant churches welcoming. Presbyterians are nice and simple...so are quakers, but quakers don't prosletyze. Methodists can, but don't always, tend to fire and brimstone. Me, I'm an Episcopalian. Our church does not at all look or smell like my gothic growing up parish. But my husband is very sensitive to art and architecture, so we picked a parish that is historicall accurate...and as he grew up Presby., one that is "low" church. I'd rather be in a parish we can walk to, but one makes these accommodations.
So, don't paint organized religion with the same brush. They, are, after-all, full of humans. Cheers and keep up the good work.
Hey, a substantive comment! I'm impressed! Unfortunately, I'm going to disagree with you. Fanaticism can spring from the soil of any religion, just as any religion can produce honest, humble, forthright exemplars of all that is good about faith. Mormons don't have a monopoly on zealots any more than they have one on good people. In fact, I'd say that if a strong sense of community is important to you in a religion, you could do a lot worse than Mormonism, and you'd be hard-pressed to do better.
Then again, you could just join the P.T.A. and avoid the religion question altogether. That's my vote.
Mormonism is rife with paradox, as are most religions. The need to satisfy both justice and mercy, to believe in the Book of Mormon when there's no physical evidence, to not kill your children when you could ensure them entry to the Celestial Kingdom, &c. I could go on for hours. I don't know what you're getting at.
Besides which, the Mormon Church does teach that there is truth outside itself. It teaches that other churches have pieces of the truth, though none but itself has the whole picture. It also encourages education among its members, which is certainly a pursuit of truth beyond the walls of faith. I hate to start sounding like an apologist for the L.D.S. Church, but if you're going to disagree with something, disagree with it intelligently. Understand it first.
(And what "story about the art work of God" are you talking about?)
Yeah, I'm sure you're crying big fat tears for me. Jeez, these days I'm practically more bitter about people who tell me to get a life than I am about my years in the Mormon Church. What's happening to me?!
The Democrats tried to force you to conform? What did they do -- strap you down and chant "It's good to tax and spend" in your ear? Dragoon you into marching for social reform and abortion rights? You were living in a Seattle of the mind, pal, not in the real world. (And if this is the typical level of literacy and credulity among Republicans, then it's no wonder Rush Limbaugh has so many disciples.)
As a complete aside, I find it fascinating that some people are struck by the humorous aspects of my Web site, and others by the bitterness. I guess it's all in what you bring to it, eh?
At last! A voice of taste and perceptiveness!
Seeing that you are a sci-fi writer as well, I wonder "Have you ever considered Scientology?"
Considered Scientology as in "considered joining it"? Or as in "considered how it fucks people up even worse than most religions do"? Let's not forget that L. Ron Hubbard was, indeed, a writer of science fiction -- and a gifted one, in that he always knew how to write a story he could sell, and how to sell it for the most money he could. In that light, I can only regard Dianetics as the ultimate triumph of his imagination. And I repeat -- his imagination.
I am sorry you seem to be missing the core of the Gospel here within the Church and the Gospel. It's good to learn others views and use them to strengthen core beliefs. Thank you again, and God bless :-)
Oh, I'm not missing it a bit. I'm glad you're happy, but that for me is sort of like watching through a restaurant window as you enjoy a fine meal of liver and bratwurst. You may like it, but it doesn't tempt me inside.
