September 1996 Archives

I have got to agree, that is one wacky religion ... but aren't they all?

It seems to me that everyone I talk to belongs to the one true church, yet they all belong to different churches. This is probably the biggest factor causing me to avoid religion like the plague.

I think you have a really excellent page... well written.. witty.. and fresh.

Reading your comment about avoiding religion "like the plague" makes me wish there were a religion vaccine. I mean, it has to be a virus of some kind, screwing with the software in our brains, right?

I noticed in perusing your letters that someone (I suppose as praise) claimed you were "a moderately good writer." Hm. I wonder what he considers a good writer? Or a great one?

I just spent all night reading your account of your "crime." Touching, funny, clever, exciting. Little on the Web has me about to fall out of my chair laughing.

Next I get to read your fiction. I'm saving that, though, in anticipation of the quality; I want to be awake when I read it.

Thanks for the extremely kind words. If you enjoy my fiction even half as much as you did Terror on Flight 789, I'll feel very pleased indeed.

I just loved reading your missionary adventures. It took about 3 hours last night and I just couldn't quit.

I have thought at times about writing about the single young men that were sent to me by ward elders. One had been committed to a mental institution and another was removed from a YA Family Home Evening activity straight to the mental ward.

I was told take being single was not fulfilling my mission from God. One young man told me that his Patriarchal Blessing said that he was going to be a Bishop and that I was not following his Priesthood authority and keeping his blessing from becoming true.

I have been acting on my Free Agency since 1980 by not attending church, but they still send home teachers. I guess I need to get my name removed from church records.

Thanks for your fun pages.

Have you read Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake? If not, you should. You'd relate well to some of her experiences -- and you'd breathe a huge sigh of relief at having dodged the bullet that took her right between the eyes.

It's frightening and sad how the Church operates in matters like these. When I was going inactive in Orem, Utah, the local singles ward sent a leggy blonde in an above-the-knee skirt around to my apartment to chat me up and entice me back to church. (I think of her as "Delilah.") I guess even the staid old gray men understand the truism that sex sells . . .

Wow, man! That story had me sitting at this computer for so long... I thought the story was great. I can't wait to read about your contact with Elder Finn now!

I came to this website mainly to learn about Mormons... I never thought that I would be treated to such a story!

Some people say you should teach by example. I say you should teach by entertainment. How did that theme song from Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids go . . . ?

Basically been lurcking about for a while; found your basic belief in religion: "Beware of God." Why? I think it should be the other way, "God, Beware."

David Brin had an interesting question to ponder, is God a Shepherd or a Father. Shepherds force their will on lowly stupid animals that will, in the end, be slaughtered for food. Fathers guide their childern through the pains of growing up, in hopes that one day, the children will grow to meet or even surpass the Father's standing.

So, if God is a Shepherd, so Brin says, shouldn't we stand up and say, "Who died and made you God?"

If God is a Father, shouldn't we try to learn as much as we can from the tools He left behind (science, nature, etc.) in hopes to master them?

Somehow, that statement scares me a little. Maybe God should beware Men, and not the other way around.

Interesting take. I'd be curious to know if Brin were making those suggestions as himself, or through a character in one of his novels.

It's my experience that some shepherds lead by example, and take nothing more from their sheep than wool. And that some fathers are not worthy of emulation.

I drop by your Web site every now and then to see if you've done anything new...I enjoy your writing a lot and I can understand quite a bit of what you have to say about Mormon life, etc., etc., etc. Just wanted to say you're a hell of a good writer and I'm looking forward to any new entries you make on your pages...I'm especially looking forward to a continuation of The Road to Apostasy. Well, not much else to say. Just wanted to send a hello and keep up the good work. Take it easy.

Hey, thanks a bunch. I've been spending a lot of time on a screenplay lately. I hope to have more "Apostasy" chapters soon.

Hey Mr. Shunn, I'm a Four Square kinda guy. Does that make me a cultist?

I teach (or "try to" as my students like to joke, ha!) biochemistry at a small college. Actually, I'd prefer to run the department and make money on the side with my personal medical business. But the Dean won't let me moonlight, so I have to teach as a necessary evil of job security. No problem. I've slid into tenure so they can't fire me no matter how "bad" I am! Great, huh? Anyway, I'd like to hear from other folks with similar stories. Maybe we could exchange notes on slime, hey?

Congrats on the tenure! I'm not sure I get your point, though. What kind of slime are you hoping to exchange notes on?

(By the way, nothing I know about Four Square leads me to think they're any more a cult than most other Protestant religions. But I admit I don't know much.)

Hi. My name is Aaron. I'm still a Mormon and still happy. You have a interesting take on Mormon beliefs. You remind me of a cousin of mine. He's also a RM, as I am too. Now he's living in SLC and recently married an inactive by a female Buddist priest or something in local park. Anything to be different. Other than entertainment, what's your purpose of discussing the church and its beliefs? Since you can't E-mail me back, I won't waste more of your time.

I'm here solely to give people like you something to feel smugly superior to.

I am a former Mormon who, as far as I know, is still an official Latter-day Saint. I was given an honorable release, 3 or so months early, from my 2-year assignment in the Utah Provo Mission. You can see my mission-compiled expose on the guts of the Book of Mormon by zooming over to:

      http://www.iahushua.com/eoeic/thebook.htm

Shalom Aleichem!

I've checked out your site, Brother Clif, and I'm pleased to declare you the Rush Limbaugh of the anti-Mormon world! Congratulations!

I read your most amusing "Terror on Flight 789" and had to tell you how much I enjoyed it. As a "past-Mormon" (a kinder, gentler, ex-Mormon) returned Missionary myself (Germany Munich Mission, 1978-80), I found myself understanding all too well to the puerilities, stresses and joys of mission life. I have never regretted serving a mission; in fact I believe it helped me immensely. (See my "before and after" picture at the unofficial mission website here.)

I was born in the Church (my parents families were converts), grew up in Provo, went on a mission, returned, went to BYU, married in the Provo temple, moved to Texas (where my wife's from) and for all practical purposes ceased contact with the Church in 1985. I will not dilate on ideolgical differences, but only say that I find that I find the Church's official histories convoluted at best, and its doctrines curious, and self-contradictory. As a one-time "true believer" in the Hofferian sense, I once found ways to rationalize everything (cognitive dissonance), but I thank the gods that THOSE DAYS ARE GONE.

Although I was not looking for an ersatz, I found all the "fellowship" I enjoyed in the Church (and alot more) when I joined the Masonic lodge (which is not a religion), in which I am quite active (shades of the temple endowment, but a hell of a lot more fun). Speaking of which, are you aware of Rife's "controversial religions" site? He's got the endowment ceremony on-line.

I notice that you're in NYC now. I get to Brooklyn once or twice a year and stay with a Masonic friend. Perhaps we can chat over lunch, if you're interested.

I don't know if you keep up on things LDS, but I made two contributions to Church history:

(1) In 1983 I discovered that Hyrum Smith's "Masonic Parchments" were, in fact, magical lamens (See Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism, Magic and Masonry [SLC: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1983], and D. Michael Quinn, Mormonism and the Magic World View [SLC: Signature Books, 1987])

(2) In 1991 I decrypted Brigham Young's coded January 6, 1842 diary entry, which contained the earliest record of a plural marriage (See Mormon History Association Newsletter No. 102, Summer 1996, p. 9).

In any case, keep up the writing.

I'd love to have lunch next time you're in town. Sound like we could have a fascinating chat. Drop me a line.

I THINK THAT YOU SHOULD STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING!! YOU SAY THAT YOU AREN'T MORMON BASHING -- BUT YOU ARE. YOU OBVIOUSLY LEFT THE CHURCH FOR YOUR OWN REASONS, BUT WHY PUBLISH EVERYTHING YOU DON'T LIKE ON THE INTERNET. HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU ARE NOT MORMON BASHING. YOU HAD SOMETHING NEGATIVE TO SAY ABOUT EVERYTHING. AND A LOT OF YOUR ACCUSATIONS ARE WRONG!!! I PICKED UP THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO PURSUADE PEOPLE NOT TO JOIN THE CHURCH, BUT THE WAY YOU DO THAT IS NOT BASH AND CRITICIZE THIS CHURCH, BUT TO MAKE THE CONGREGATIONS OF THE OTHER CHURCHES STRONGER. YOU OBVIOUSLY STAYED IN THE CHURCH FOR 28 YEARS BECAUSE SOMETHING COMPELLED YOU TO STAY, AND ALSO TO SERVE A MISSION. MAYBE THE REASON YOU LEFT IS BECAUSE YOU COUDLN'T OBEY THE SIMPLE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND YOU REALIZED THAT THE TRUTH HURTS. I CAN'T BELIEVE SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY SPEND THEIR TIME DOING SOMETHING AS BAD AS YOU HAVE. IF YOU WANT TO WRITE BACK, PLEASE DO. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR INPUT ON THE MATTER.

Ma'am, I think you're hysterical. Please calm down and stop shouting . . .

The proper way to get people away from Mormonism is to build up the congregations of other churches, eh? And I suppose the best way to get people away from crack is to supply them with heroin.

(But seriously, folks, for those of you who didn't know it, typing in all caps on the 'Net means that you're shouting, and it's considered very rude. Please try to refrain.)

please don't publish my address...I'm a work...just like the Car Guys (Click and Clack) predict.

Anyway, where are the August 17 letters you said are added? The most recent dates I see are MAY for crying out loud. I mean, some of us are desperate for the yuks of the apologists and the hopefulness of the "converts" to the real world. GET MOVING.

good work keep it up.

Oh, for crying out loud. How many times to I have to explain this?

Interesting story, but weird logic. Well, OF COURSE bad people do bad things because they read bad things that are prophesied. But that grants them no nobility. And over the course of history many bad people have done many bad things because they were prophesied, but they did them either because they felt that the prophecy sanctioned their evil action, or because they thought it would make them a big shot if they were one of the guys mentioned in the prophecy. So, which of these causes motivated you, Mr. Schunn?

Why do all your choices for me involve prophecy? Do you think I give two figs about prophecy? Or even believe in it?

(On different note, I continue to be amazed at people who can't even spell my name when it's sitting right in front of them.)

Thanks for putting this page up, as a native of Utah I think we need this page. I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. I even woke up my roommates!

You're very welcome! (Please apologize to your roommates for me.)

I wrote here several months ago and voiced some of my concerns with the Mormon church. I now write again, as an update, and from the perspective of currently being a Mormon missionary. To what extent truth can be found entirely within one organization, I am unsure. My guess is that most likely when dealing with people and their assorted human frailties, no one organization can be absolutely perfect. Indeed, perfection is an attribute that most people would assign only to God. But, then, each of us has this "divinity" within us--and each of us is capable of cultivating this. And many name the process of reaching for God as "following your heart." If all that we can ever really know in life is that which we can see, then we all know that we will eventually die. So--let's not waste our lives on trifles. If you find yourself drawn to a person, an organization, or idea, go there. And Christ's old adage often helps in discerning: "By their fruits ye may know them." If, then, after inspecting the tree, you find that its fruit is desirable, then partake. If the tree is bad, avoid it. Each person must decide for himself what path through life he will follow. So let us learn, let us feel, and let us choose as we are so directed by the divinity within. And if the passage of time is the only real constant we can unmistakably see, then we must begin all the sooner to find it all out. Best of luck to you all...

Spoken like a missionary, Levi. But at the same time, not like a missionary. You're a smart man, though I think more people would listen to you if you spoke less like a sage and more like a regular guy.

I have lived in Utah since the 2nd grade, I have recently graduated May of 1996. Anyway, I have dealt with being ostracized the whole time, since my family is one of the few who isn't Mormon, while the general population in Utah is LDS. I just wanted to let you know of some of the things I have encountered while living in this state.

1. When we first moved here, my Mother was asked automatically what "ward" she belonged to. Having never heard of a "ward" she replied, "I've never been committed, I'm not a mental case."

2. The missionaries came to our door not long after we moved in our home. (By this time we knew what the church was all about.) My Dad answered the door and pointed to a bush outside, "We're reformed Druids, we worship that bush over there." They haven't been back since, I personally believe that our house has a big black X on it.

3. Back when I was trying to make friends in 2nd grade, I made the mistake of saying to a girl, "Oh my God, you mean you're not Mormon! There is someone like me here." Those girls who were Mormon never spoke to me again. I recently graduated with them and have never heard a peep out of them since.

4. Some of my friends were recently approached by some missionaries. My friends said, "Hey can we have a Book of Mormon?" To which they replied "Of course!" After receiving the book, my friends said,"Thank you sooo much, we were out of Zig Zags."

These are just a few of the things I have seen and heard while living in Utah. I'm sure many of you have similar stories to tell.

I do have similar stories to tell -- though unfortunately, they're mostly from the other side of the fence. I was "good" Mormon kid in high school, I'm sorry to say.

Wow. Great page. I wish fewer small-minded people would pollute it with their dogma. (there you go, your first article of faith is Marylin Manson's BEWARE OF GOD, mine was always Liquid Televisions CURB YOUR DOGMA) Skillfully written, without falling into the common trap of all-out trashing whatever it is you're critiquing.

I can only imagine how cathartic posting your experiences must be to you, and what a sense of closure it must give. I'm tempted to post the same sorts of stories, but if my dear parents or grandparents ever got wind of it, it'd break their hearts.

Post under a pseudonym. That way you can get catharthis without alienating everyone you're related to. If you're a former Mormon, as opposed to a survivor of some other religion, you could submit your story to Eric Kettunen's Recovery from Mormonism page. A whole lot of people would see it and possibly be helped by it.

Dude, you've obviously had some major problems in life. I'm sure it felt good to masturbate without guilt the first time after your liberation from the oppressing dogma of Mormondom, but don't be fooled. Be careful--SOMETHING is there. Consider carefully why you write and the damage you may cause. Ensure that the message merits the consequences. Everything is contingent and contextual.

Yeah, Bubba, and I'm sure it felt good to imagine me masturbating without guilt for the first time. You're obviously more interested in scoring points than making them, so take a hike.

It's sad that you left the church. Whats real sad is this Web Site.

Yeah, pass the Kleenex, you anonymous coward. Next?

My wife is Mormon, but I have yet to get the "Burning in the Bosom" so oft described. Well, yes, I do get it, but that's from spicy foods and/or alcohol plus my hiatal hernia. Mormonism does the same thing to me, but I don't feel "spiritual" when I get it. In either case, antacids cure the problem.

While visiting the Washington, DC area last week, my wife asked me to attend her sacrament meeting at the Kensington Ward (next to the temple in DC) and I was startled to see people of color (that IS the "pc" way to say "Blacks"?) in attendance. There were perhaps six or seven in the ward meeting of about 200 or so. I have come to accept the "white and delightsome" aspect of Mormonism, as I had yet to see any but whites in attendance at Mormon functions, so this suprised me. No matter this was in the DC area. I did notice that some of the Blacks were lighter in color, some almost white. Perhaps Mormanism DOES work, after all ;-).

As usual, I will deny all knowledge of this post in order to protect my family (and me) from retribution by the Net Nazi Mormons.

:) I have to say that I can't understand why anyone black would want to be a Mormon, but apparently it happens. It's not the same as joining the Klan, but still.