Voices from the Dust: April 1996
previous: A Letter from a Friend
from Rick Williams (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
2 Apr 96, 3:45 p.m.
I just read your Terror on Flight 789 story. Pretty cool read. Now I have to go back to the glossary and get hip to all the code words. You had an amazing experience, and you write very well. Best wishes.
You don't need to go to the glossary, you know. You could just join the Church and learn the code words there. ;) Thanks for writing.
from g█████@s████.com
4 Apr 96, 6:30 p.m.
A very enjoyable web page. However, don't you think that the tactics used by individuals within the Mormon Church are similar to those used by most "organized religions"? After all, I believe it was Karl Marx who called religion the "opiate of the masses."
As for my own beliefs, I am an active, thinking Mormon from a long line of Mormons. However, I was fortunate enough to have parents who strongly believed that their children should not be mindless zombies who followed blindly every word of every "leader." Dad went to the University of Utah and received his minor in philosophy, if that tells you anything. Unfortunately, fanaticism in any form is dangerous, be it in the L.D.S. Church, "Christian" churches, Islam, or any other group, for it leads to the abolition of individual thought. Freedom of expression and thought is what truly allows people to reach whatever potential that they have.
So why am I a member of any organized religion? When I came to a crossroads of trying to determine if God existed, that was the starting point of determining my basic beliefs. Once I received confirmation to myself that God existed, logic required that I determine what is the nature this being called "God." Having researched numerous religions (I have my Koran next to my Book of Mormon at work) ranging from Islam to fundamental Christianity, I rejected those -- not because they don't carry good principles, but because of the shallowness of the doctrines they espouse. Standard religions maintain a very simplistic view of God because of the absolutes that they maintain. Absolutes like an absolute reward or punishment to "heaven" or "hell" are untenable, because mankind does not have absolute knowledge, and being subject to these absolutes without pure knowledge would imply that God is a harsh, vindictive, and somewhat warped being. This cannot be the kind of being I understand him to be. All of the religions I have studied call him a kind and loving God, but only the tenets of the L.D.S. Church truly support the reality of this kind of being.
Notwithstanding individuals within the church. All individuals are subject to their own unique understanding of the gospel, and thus are often intolerant of differing viewpoints. Which is a far cry from the early teachings of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, as in any organization, give a small petty bureaucrat power and he/she will sink to the challenge and power of the position. Far too often "absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Anyway, thanks for the enjoyable articles. I am glad to hear that you have achieved inner peace. Many search a lifetime for that without coming close to achieving it.
By the way, you are certainly a gifted writer. I laughed throughout the whole story.
Thanks for the thought-provoking feedback. I'm not sure that I would agree that the Mormon version of God is any kinder or more fair than any other God -- he doesn't permit homosexuals to achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, for example -- but it's clear that you haven't reached your conclusions without a great deal of study, which I very much respect.
And yes, I would agree that the Mormon Church uses the same tactics as many other churches. I would also venture to say that they use them far more effectively than most.
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
5 Apr 96, 9:17 p.m.
Sorry but these pages are pathetic. For someone to do all this research on Mormons and know so much about them must have had another motive besides cutting them down. I think it is quite odd that you hardly ever read stuff about Mormons majorly cutting down other religions (specifically!), but you read a lot of anti-Mormon literature. But for someone to actually make a page like that really does not have anything worthwhile to do. I hope you don't believe in making the world a better place to live, world peace, less fighting, and are against discrimination because you just proved you don't.
No, Mormons don't cut down other religions specifically. Their primary book of scripture simply lumps them all together under a single heading: "whore of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10, 11; 22:13; 2 Nephi 10:16; 28:18).
Um, and about all this "research" I'm supposed to have done on Mormons -- I grew up Mormon, in case you weren't paying attention. If you're saying that all the personal scripture study I engaged in for years and years and years, all the Sunday school lessons I heard, all the others ones I taught, all the seminary and Institute classes I attended, all the General Conferences I sat through -- if you're saying that there were better ways for me to spend my time . . . well, I quite agree. But that doesn't change the fact that all that "research" was exactly what my Church leaders wanted me to be doing. Only, they called it "personal study."
from Hafadai (k███████@g██.com)
6 Apr 96, 10:58 p.m.
Thanks. Your Netscape, Microsoft driven opening leads one to believe that the fractals are cool but theologically UNdriven. What happened Bill. I remember the corporate cartoons myself.
Um, someone pass me the Urim and Thummimm, please? I think I'm reading Reformed Ægyptian.
from a reader who supplied a nonexistent email address (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
7 Apr 96, 12:12 p.m.
I read your story about your mission experience. I laughed, but I also feel really sorry for you. You've missed the whole point. You shouldn't have gone in the first place.
Had you known me well at nineteen, you wouldn't ever have told me that I shouldn't be going on a mission. I was the quintessential bright, spiritual Mormon kid, on the fasttrack to Church leadership nirvana. By everything the Church told me, my place was in the mission field. The dictum that every worthy young man should serve a mission does not allow for loose interpretation. My wish is that I had never gone on a mission, but your observation that I shouldn't have gone is irrelevant and quite meaningless. I really shouldn't have been born a Mormon in the first place, but that isn't the point of my story either.
The point is that I was compelled by everything I was taught as a youth and a missionary to break the law in an attempt to interfere with another person's free agency. The point is that the Church is a dangerously totalitarian entity that attempts to indoctrinate its members to such a degree that right and wrong are easily turned on their sides. The point is that I escaped with most of my sanity and humor intact -- that I lived to tell the tale, as it were. Neither your revisionist wishes nor mine change that one whit.
from Lamonte John (l████@f██████.██.███.edu)
8 Apr 96, 12:17 p.m.
I guess you could say that I escaped too, eight years ago, when I moved to Virginia from Utah. I am a fifth generation Mormon, and it wasn't until I moved away from "Zion" that I really discovered that I have a testimony of the truthfulness taught in the Mormon Church. Prior to that, I was surrounded by two groups of people: 1) the Utah Mormons who have forgotten the persecution of their ancestors and continue that same persecution of non-members every day now that they are the dominant religion; and 2) the crybaby non-Mormons who move to Utah because of the beautiful environment and the clean living of its citizens (mostly Mormons), yet constantly moan about the "oppressive Church" and the stupid drinking laws. Whenever I inquired about their efforts to relocate to a more suitable state, they claimed they would never leave because they love Utah. But the moaning goes on.
Anyway, back to me and my discovery. I have found that, at least for me, the Mormon Church teaches that we should each have a personal relationship with God, and that we should not, repeat should not, rely on the guidance of others without intense prayer and communion with God in order to discern the truth. My experience in the Church has shown me that my relationship with my family and my God are more important than any other relationships in my life. It has also taught me that, ultimately, we are all members of the same family, the family of our Father in Heaven, and should treat each other accordingly. Good luck in your future endeavors, and may you always keep your sense of humor.
Joseph Smith did indeed proclaim that people should, in Paul's words, "prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Unfortunately, the frequent injunction to "follow the brethren" often short-circuits the process of studying and finding one's own answers. I congratulate you on your willingness to think for yourself, and wish you well.
For the record, though, I think non-Mormons in Utah have every right to expect that, as citizens of the United States of America, there will be no established state religion interfering with their desires, and that no church will involve itself improperly in government affairs. I think in Utah the situation comes perilously close to just that, and it's reasonable to expect complaints about it.
from Jake Emmett (c███@e██.edu)
8 Apr 96, 5:15 p.m.
I've heard some great missionary stories, but yours has to be the best. I'm currently writing a series of observations from my mission (1978-1980). When I get done (hopefully sometime this summer) I may sent you a couple of them to you. You may get a kick out of them, since they are far from serious observations.
I'd be quite interested in seeing them, whatever their degree of seriousness. Best of luck!
from Shilo Dean (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
9 Apr 96, 8:50 p.m.
I think that it is unfortunate that people like you exist. I don't think that being a member of the Mormon Church taught you anything. If there is one thing that I have learned from being a Mormon, it is to let others govern themselves. We do, after all, have our free agency. I only hope that non-Mormons who visit your blasphemous site are not influenced by the fingers that you point and the assumptions that you make. Mormons are not a cult, not controlled, and not crazy.
I think that you are one of the most closed-minded people that I have ever heard of, and I am ashamed that I even took the time to read a few of the entries. I expect you to laugh at the comments I have made and call them typical, but I had to say them just the same. My only hope is that people will take the time to examine both sides of the Mormon story before judging.
And by the way, the only reason that a "support group," as you call it, for those who have left the Church exists is because misery loves company. It is only natural that people who have lost that special, spiritual something that the Church brings into our lives should seek out other people to be unhappy and miserable with. I don't know why you and others leave the Church. Because of Satan, or by an immature reason like that of Mr. Benson the cartoonist, but whatever the reason, I hope that you find your way back, and use your persuasive computer powers to bring people to God, instead of pushing them away.
Earth to Rameumptom! Come in, Rameumptom!
If Mormons really believed in letting others govern themselves, then there would be no missionary effort. Why is it so wrong for me to supply information that might influence someone's decision about membership in the Mormon Church when there are something like 50,000 people out there doing the same thing in the Church's favor? Isn't that dangerously close to hypocrisy, Shilo?
Those of us who have left the Church have lost something, no doubt about it. We've lost the ability to sacrifice ourselves to a philosophy we no longer buy into. We've lost the need to please a host of remote old men by our adherence to a set of arbitrary strictures that have lost their relevance to us. We've lost the acceptance of our former community, which was once a major part of our lives but to whose beliefs and values we can no longer blindly subscribe. So instead we come together and attempt to buoy each other up, just as faithful Mormons come together and attempt to do the same for one another. The degree of joy and pain we feel is no less and no more than what the faithful feel when they associate. Yes, and if you prick us, we bleed, too.
(Check out Kevin DeShazar's letter for another perspective on this phenomenon.)
from Berk Charlton (b███████@c███.com)
11 Apr 96, 11:20 a.m.
Your bitterness and sarcasm against the Mormon Church is petty. Grow up.
No, petty is when I point out that you should have used the verb "are" instead of "is." The sort of discussion I engage in on my Web pages is absolutely necessary to me if I am ever going to understand in what ways the foundations I built my life on are faulty, how exactly I've been led astray by them, and what I can do to repair the breaches and live like a normal human being. For me to see such an endeavor as "petty" would mean valuing my life as a thing of naught. And I never will.
Your mileage may vary.
from Al (a████@a████.██████.com)
11 Apr 96, 11:29 a.m.
Regarding "from Shilo Dean, 9 Apr 96, 8:50 p.m.":
I, too, hope that people will look at both sides of the Mormon story before judging. I also hope that Mormons will stop calling ex-Mormons "closed-minded" when they look at both sides of an issue and choose to follow the side they feel is most correct. How is that closed-minded? Isn't that the very definition of open-mindedness?
Well said, Al. That certainly fits with my definition.
from Levi Gunderson (l██████@p███████.com)
12 Apr 96, 2:49 a.m.
"From Our Point of View We Had Moved to the Left" was great. Quite good. Thanks for the thought-provocation. :)
Very glad you liked it. I think it's my best story -- but I can't shake this fear that it's the best thing I'll ever write. :( I hope I'm wrong, and that I can provoke your thought-thinker again in the future.
from Erin Venema (e██████@t██.edu)
12 Apr 96, 2:31 p.m.
This is a superb Web site. I first found my way here through %@&@^*!!'s links in the library, and now I keep coming back to yours and hers.
I enjoyed your Mormon pages and the ability you have to express yourself. I have to admit, though, that your story "From Our Point of View We Had Moved to the Left" is what prompted me to write. It's incredible. You manage to pack a powerful story into simple words and phrases. Everything had significance . . . the narrator's name, the different versions of the words "left" and "right" . . . When it ended, I was stunned. You're a very gifted writer. Thank you for sharing. Now I have to go read everything else you have up here! :)
Wow, thanks! Your kind words mean a great deal to me. I hope my other offerings don't disappoint you. :)
from Simon (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
14 Apr 96, 5:05 p.m.
Well, as u know I am 15, but wise beyond my years. I must thank Mr. Shunn for his pages. They will help people more thanks he is aware. I have learned so much from the pages, especially "The Road to Apostasy." That helped me to really realize how Satan can drag you down at a low point in your life!
To those of you who practice or have a hobby of attempting to disprove the church, why do you do this? It is pointless. We allow all men to worship who, where, and how they may (Article of Faith 8 I believe?), who don't you just leave us alone?!? Also, don't rely on these pages as a source for Church Doctrine, granted, some may be true (haven't read all of them), but he gives the doctrine in a negative way, to make it sound bad, get it from missionarie, Apostles, heck, even the Bible. I can give you many Bible verses that prove The Church of Latter- day Saints is true!
Amos 3:7 God gives revalation to Prophets and will do nothing until he does.
Ezekiel 37:15-17 Stick of Judah (Bible) stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon)
II Thessilonians 2:3 That day is the second coming. Since Christ organized his church, why wouldn't he restore or reorganize it?
Amos 8:11 The famine is not hearing the true gospel, nuff said?
Isaiah chapter 29 tells more about the feast
Well, I leave you my testimony, I know the church is true, and Christ did restore it through the Prophet Joseph Smith, and Gordon B. Hinkley is the current Prophet, The Book of Mormon; Another Testiment of Jesus Christ is a true book.
BTW (by the way), Bro. Shunn, what religion r u now? Also, Why did you put that Temple link on your page, please take it off, it is a VERY sacred place where onlt the worthy should know wha happens in detail
Greetings, Simon "I Must Be a Prophet" Chance Hammock! You must be quite prescient indeed to have gleaned such a message from "The Road to Apostasy," seeing as it currently recounts nothing of my life beyond the age of six. And gosh, if Satan had his hooks in me even before the age of accountability, then what chance did I ever have?
I'm guessing that you hope they'll call you on a mission -- when you've grown a foot or two, no doubt. When you're standing on someone's doorstep and he's telling you to go away and leave him alone, think back on what you've said here, and perhaps you'll recognize its absurdity.
Finally, you've obviously taken copious notes in seminary. You're probably familiar with Alma 38:11, then: "See that ye are not lifted up unto pride; yea, see that ye do not boast in your own wisdom, nor of your much strength."
from Leigha Fleming (l██████@j███.com)
15 Apr 96, 8:55 p.m.
From the first day I discovered your page I have made it a point to return frequently. I began reading your page on the "Mormon Matter" as I have an interest -- I am a Mormon. When I finished, I began to read your short stories. To my delight, I enjoyed your short stories as much as, if not more so than, your insights about the Church. You are a very gifted writer.
I am still "officially" a Mormon -- I'm not married and don't have kids. I'm a convert, in fact -- so I don't have to worry about a family agonizing about my liberalness and probable apostasy. I suppose that is lucky for me.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure now why I joined the Church. I certainly wasn't entirely convinced when I joined. I think in many ways I was trying (and am still trying) to find some sense of a spiritual center, and the Mormon Church attempted to provide "pat" answers to my questions -- even if those answers were not very logical.
I'm not active in the Church anymore. There are good parts to it, I think -- and many, many bad parts -- especially the mindset that encourages uniformity of thought and lack of personal spiritual and intellectual development.
I wish you very well. I enjoy your writings very much. I do believe we are all to some extent trying to find a spiritual path -- some connection to the divine -- I wonder how, since leaving the Church, you have progressed along that path? Or if you feel at all a need for a spiritual center in your life. At any rate, the very best of luck. Please continue posting your Mormon insights and, more especially, your short stories.
I suppose that reading and writing science fiction and fantasy are ways for many of us to pursue elusive inner truths that might otherwise necessitate surrendering our agency to something institutional and oppressive. In other words, fiction is the closest thing I have to a religion -- and I like it that way. :) Thanks for writing!
from David Petersen (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
18 Apr 96, 5:00 p.m.
Just a quick comment, for someone as intelligent as you obviously are, you have fallen for the oft repeated but very wrong statement that teenage pregnancies are higher in Utah than anywhere else. There was an study published just recently that showed that teenage pregnancies in Utah are significanly lower than the national average. Unfortunately, I didn't think to keep the article so I can't prove it. However, this is not the only study I have reviewed that shows Utah teen pregnancies to be one of the lowest rates in the nation. However, if you have a study that proves me wrong, I sure would like to see it.
Though it saddens me that you gave up the Church, I still enjoyed your page.
Eek. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I guess it just goes to show that you can't believe everything you hear from the pulpit. :) I shall correct my error forthwith.
from Leigha Fleming (l██████@j███.com)
20 Apr 96, 11:08 p.m.
I don't know that I would have characterized myself as a science fiction "fan" before. I enjoyed reading some of what I read, but most sci-fi just didn't interest me. However, I need to tell you that I have enjoyed your short stories very much, and most especially the beginning chapters to your -- hopefully! :) -- soon-to-be-published book. I also wanted to let you know I really enjoyed your poem. This is one of my favorite sites. Keep up the good work and let us know when your book gets published!
Thanks, Leigha! Keep checking back -- when I sell the novel, you'll definitely hear about it here!
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
23 Apr 96, 12:22 p.m.
Very interesting reading. As one who was born neither "white nor delightsome," I have also been extremely affected by the Book of Mormon. I was born and raised in the rural capital of Mormondom (the Duncan/Thatcher/Safford area of Arizona). My wife's family is nth generation Mormon, and when I showed up on date night you can imagine what a warm reception I got. I was actually valedictorian, basketball captain . . . all the good stuff (you'd think), but still not quite the right shade. The second strike against me was that I am Catholic. There's a book in there somewhere.
Anyway I read everything you put out here and thought I'd drop a line to cheer you on. I'm sure it took some big brass ones to take those first steps. Good luck!
Thanks for the kind words. Yours must be no less big or brassy, for having bucked the social order in more ways than one. I'm sure an interfaith, interracial marriage in Arizona is no easy thing to pull off. Best of luck to both of you, and best wishes!
from Stacey G. (s█████@r██████.com)
23 Apr 96, 2:38 p.m.
I am in awe of your CD collection. I am a big Rush fan, but my collection is minute compared to yours! Rush on, brother!
Hey, a female Rush fan! I didn't know there was such a thing! Cool! I've always thought that Rush was the best hard-rock band around -- and I won't stop until I have every album. :)
from David Petersen (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
24 Apr 96, 5:50 p.m.
Just another quick comment, this time on the glossary. Generally I enjoyed your definitions, they are generally fair and occassionally humorous. The only one that I think you should add to is the one on the Word of Wisdom. You spent most of the definition explaining why hot drinks mean caffeine to Mormons. While this is all more or less true, I think you could have at least mentioned that the Word of Wisdom is a pretty good guide to a healthy life. It is probably one of the first publications to warn against tobacco. It encourages low meat consumption, to exercise, etc. I just think it would have been fair to mention these things as well as the odd conclusion that hot drinks means coffee, tea, Pepsi, etc.
Well, you're right about that, of course -- but good diet and exercise have never been where the doctrinal emphasis is placed. I mean, you'll never hear of someone being denied a temple recommend because he was too fat, or ate too much meat, or consumed a grain out of its season.
from Willy Ortega (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
25 Apr 96, 12:05 p.m.
Just a helpful suggestion: Only returned missionaries and homosexuals ("...not that there's anything wrong with that..." -Seinfeld) are so concerned about their facial hair. You could have just moved someplace cold like Minnesota where even Bishops have beards.
I once interviewed at a "wilderness residential school for rich delinquent kids whose parents want to get rid of them for a while" in Bonners Ferry, ID, where part of the teaching reponsibilites included splitting firewood. Beautiful place. They gave me one of those "what kind of tree would you like to be" interviews. One of the questions was: What goal have you set and achieved in the last year? They weren't impressed with the truth, which was that I had learned the postal abbreviations for all 50 states. If they had extended the period to 18 months I could have added juggling.
Um, certain orthodox Jews are awfully concerned with their facial hair, as is every Mennonite I've ever met. Not to mention most American women. :)
But what Utah Mormon wouldn't be concerned with his facial hair, being raised in a culture where, by and large, one must conform to get by? That's what my father taught me, anyway: "You can't get a good job in this state with a beard like that." (In the computer industry? It is to laugh. But I digress.)
Anyway, when I asserted that I was only attempting to emulate the Savior in my appearance . . . well, let's just say there was no amusement in Mudville that day, and leave it at that.
from D. Mayer (/dust/1996/04/voices-from-the-dust-april-1996.html)
25 Apr 96, 4:01 p.m.
What the @!%$#&* are you trying to do!! Every relidgon has it's right to believe what they want!
Goodness, such language! But are you sure you spelled that correctly? I was always taught that "$" comes before "%," except after "&."
I don't recall having ever disputed that a person can believe what he or she likes. As a corollary, I would assert that I am no more bound to keep a gag on my beliefs than -- much as it pains me to admit -- you are.
from Darrin L. Rogers (d███████@u█████.████.edu)
29 Apr 96, 10:18 a.m.
I found your website to be frivolous at best. Not that frivolous is always bad, mind you. However, if you have something to say that shows an error in someone else's beliefs, and you wish to express yourself, and it is important enough to do so, semi-truths, sarcasm, veiled attacks and puerile insults are generally frowned upon by people who: a) have brains, and b) use them, as ways of expressing disagreement.
And here I thought that was exactly what won Garry Trudeau his Pulitzer. Silly me. (Warn me next time you're about to launch another of these, um, veiled attacks, by the way -- so I can erect a barricade of little chef's caps and aprons.)
