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Well, I know why apostasy takes so long... I'm sitting here in gridlock on The Road to Apostasy thinking, "We need to get a construction company out here to widen the damn thing!"

=)

Come on. You and I both know that the only thing a construction company is going to do is sit around drinking coffee all day and turn the jackhammer on from time to time so it sounds like something's happening. Or am I thinking of UDoT? Good heavens, if I let them take over, then the darn thing won't get done for six years!

I really like the site and I hope you get up a new episode of "The Road to Apostasy" real soon.

I am a recovering mormon currently attending Arizona State. I have seen several references on your site to the church's great PR machine and I thought you would be interested in what my brother had to say about working in the motor pool in the Mississippi mission. It turns out that the church has even researched what CARS people will accept in different areas. My brother wasn't allowed to buy japanese cars for the mission because southerners don't trust people who drive them. I couldn't fucking believe that. Even major corporations don't do that much marketing research.

Just something I thought you might be interested in.

Please don't post my name as my family thinks that I am not going on mission because I want to "think about things for awhile" (the lies I tell to get my tuition paid for!) but feel free to write me back if you are so inclined.

I'd be happy to write back, except for the fact that you submitted your letter anonymously -- without an email address. Keep on having fun in the sun, and don't let those campus mission recruiters get to you!

I was just wondering what state you are from cause most Mormons are from Utah.

As of 1992, there were about half a million Mormons in Utah. Out of 9 million Mormons worldwide, I'd say that hardly qualifies as "most." Nonetheless, I did grow up in Utah, though I was born in California and now live in New York.

I really enjoy spending (or is it wasting?) time on your site! Hmm, no built in line breaks, so I'll just keep typing and let you wrap the text. I haven't explored the whole place yet, but I spent a hilarious afternoon perusing your terrorist credentials and eagerly await each new installment of the Road to Apostasy. Consider this my encouraging vote to get those chapters out more frequently!

Kudos also to both you and %@&@^*!! for the &@+!f&=# site in general. I'm a biologist who's dabbled in web page design, and I really like what I see here.

OK, enough gushing. I look forward to updates to your page and tracking down some of your published work (I got here through SFFNet). Thanks for making life more enjoyable through your creative impulses!

Thanks for making my creative impulses feel as though they were not ill-spent! (Or is it wasted?)

I just finished reading "Chairman of the Board." I'm almost speechless. Content-wise it's as good as Stephen King's "Christine." (And at least it had some moderately good sex in it, UNLIKE "Road to Apostasy" . . . but I've bitched about that enough in the past.)

Polish it. Sell it. And make a million bucks, Bill. You deserve it. (But your dad was probably right. As a good Mormon kid, presumably getting ready to go on a mission, you probably shouldn't have been writing it. But shit, I'm glad you did.)

P.S. Wanna come over some time with %@&@^*!! and play Ouija with me and my gal?

I'm not sure Christine was one of the master's better efforts, but hell, I'll take the compliment! And we'll be right over to channel those little ouija spirits -- or rather, to see which of us is more skilled at getting the pointer to go where he wants without the other players catching on. ;)

I promise that the sex in "The Road to Apostasy" is coming soon enough. Please be patient with me. And in the meantime, drop over to "Memos from the Moon," where I'll be dropping some titillating little tidbits from time to time . . .

i love your web page (and others like it)! the lines are very clear.

your fruits:

  • narcissism
  • cynicism
  • pessimism
  • mistrust
  • doubt
  • disbelief...

how dark indeed.

let me pick from one of many examples in my life... say my grandmother's:


  • selflessness
  • genuineness
  • optimism
  • trust
  • hope
  • faith...

how light indeed.

both honest with ones life and its experiences i suppose. for that matter, both happy (cuz you say you are), both with tests and choices and regrets... as for the fruits, her legacy, your future...? like night and day.

offer me something more than witty tales on the backdrop of your mormon/exmormon life. mormon/exmormon agnostics are all the same: supposed intellectual/moral freedom/enlightenment... nothing to back it up with but their own pitiful negative experiences. (get over it already)

come on, you can do better than this... offer me something better!

Okay, here, have a cream puff. It's light and sweet and hardly filling at all. Bon appetit!

Greetings from Hollywood, where, how did you put it? "The --- flies faster than lightning bugs in August." Allow me to join the chorus in praising you for some very entertaining writing on your career as international terrorist. I particularly enjoyed The Revivalist and your short stories, being an avid SF fan in a former life when I actually had time to read.

And for some reason I was drawn in to reading the whole enchilada or "drowning" as %@&@^*!! would say. Why? Partly for the knee-slapping humor, partly for the commonality of experiences both on the mission and church front, partly for the good reading and partly for understanding. Understanding? Yes, understanding and appreciating someone who feels passionately about what he does and is courageous enough to be so open with complete strangers about some very personal matters - Mormon or otherwise.

I know what you're thinking right now, "Where does this guy fall? Among the sympathetic former Mormons already on the expressway to apostasy? Or the self-righteous priests, high or low, on the highway to heaven (take a right turn before Jericho)?" Or, "What am I going to have for lunch/dinner?" Well, before I get neatly cubby-holed and dispatched with a one or two sentence courtesy reply, allow me to share a few thoughts.

Agnostic - "a person who believes that one cannot know whether there is a God or an ultimate cause" Webster's New World Dictionary

Hmm . . . sounds familiar, ". . . Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see . . . God--a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be . . . I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God . . ." Alma 30.

You would have gotten along nicely with one Korihor, of Book of Mormon fame. It seems that you've perused his experience with Alma at least a few times - see Ch. 3 sec. xi. The Revivalist. Even borrowed some lines from Alma, I see. Well, in case you're wondering, I am not writing to rehash all of Korihor vs. Alma with you. Rather, I would like to muse a little about one part of that encounter - signs.

Who gets to see an honest-to-goodness sign from heaven and who doesn't? Let's dig in to Voices from the Dust and see what you have had to say on the matter:

". . . Maybe if God himself came down and slapped me around -- à la Alma the Younger -- I'd decide to return to the Church. But it's more likely I wouldn't. I can't respect a God who plays favorites. Why should baddies like Saul and Alma get personal wake-up calls from God, when no one else does? Why hasn't the Big Man come down and straightened out Ed Decker? Why does he permit Jerald and Sandra Tanner to continue on their merry divisive way? Hey, for that matter, why didn't he recruit Hitler when he had the chance? Can you imagine what God could have accomplished with der Führer on his team? Who did Alma and Saul have to sleep with to become God's pets?" (Reply to 2/13/97 note from Shauna Conn Weller)

Tsk, tsk. Such fiery indignation, Bill. One too many cuppa joes that day? Let's clear up a few things here. Did Alma and Saul sleep with anyone [excuse your vulgarity] to qualify for the experience they had? Let's see what the ministering angel said to Alma on his "road to Damascus":

". . . Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith." Mosiah 27:14

And if that wasn't enough:

". . . Alma, go thy way, and seek to destroy the church no more, that their prayers may be answered, and this even if thou wilt of thyself be cast off." Mosiah 27:16

It's pretty obvious here that the angel (and we can presume the Lord) was mightily disgusted with Alma le jeune and was emphatically not on his errand because of anything our nefarious young apostate had done. In fact, it appears that the angel was ready for Alma to shine the whole thing off and continue on his merry divisive way.

Playing favorites? Yes, I suppose God does play favorites, but not in the way that you were so quick to shoot off. God most definitely does favor those who pray with faith for that which is right. And it is not at all illogical to venture that Peter and others prayed with similar fervor for the former Saul.

"Yeah, so?" you're thinking, "Who's praying for me? AS IF I care!" More on that in a moment.

Shall we talk about other people who received signs? Our good friend Korihor and a certain Sherem come to mind. No, we don't like the signs that they received - stricken deaf and dumb, then death; or seizure and death. But they were signs, nonetheless.

"Ok," you say, "The Tanners, Eric Kettunen, et al are still kicking. How come Korihor & friends are stricken so quick and they're not?" Have patience, grasshopper. Their signs will come all in due time and it won't be pretty, I assure you.

Then how about our fine young Daedalus? What would it take to melt his wax? Join me as I venture some ideas.

Perhaps the most precious possession any writer has is creativity. Originality. Without that spark, the blank computer screen mocks you. Every new publication by a friend reminds you that you're falling behind. You long to nurture your muse and wonder when in the blazes you can get her to pay the rent. Blame it on how busy your job keeps you. How much time the web site is taking. Perhaps that debt is starting to look more like New Jersey than Rhode Island. The seagulls are getting more wary all the time. I've been to the real Alcatraz. Good analogy.

Isn't it interesting to note that you haven't published a thing since you moved in with Ms. Long in June and decided to liberate yourself from the "frenzied minds" and "foolish traditions" of those wizened old men in SLC? Puzzling evidence . . . two years and all you've got to show is a finished story on your missionary exploits published on the Internet, but scorned by Hollywood (that whore). Why, in the previous two years, 2/1993-2/1995, you published no less than six works (seven if you include Celestial Mechanics, which was written while you were still in Utah) and wrote an as yet unpublished novel. Merely a slump, you say? More like Death Valley, I'd say.

Methinks you're getting a taste of what it's like to lose that gift. The spark. But I for one don't want you to lose it. Beneath that gruff exterior there's someone who's sensitive, who's been down the West 33rd Avenue of life. Someone who's looked straight at the embodiment of what this world has to offer and found out for himself what she is. A lie.

So I'm going to pray for you. And I won't be alone. There are others out there, including a father who was by no means perfect, but loves you more in his own way than you can comprehend. We're going to muster up every ounce of faith we can and prove to you and ourselves that our God is a God of miracles.

And while you may continue to mock, just be looking for that day as you stumble along your post-apostasy road. The day when your telegram from the soul comes via special messenger.

Here, Sean, have a hankie. You've worked yourself up into such a state of self-serving and self-important piety that you're getting it all over yourself.

You know, I'd be more inclined to take your remarks seriously if it weren't for a few facts which you don't happen to have in your possession. First is that, during the period when I wrote most of those works that were (later) published between 1993 and 1996, I was engaging in unholy practices with my girlfriend Roxie three nights out of five. Second, I wrote a significant portion of them at work, on company time, when I should have been debugging my section of WordPerfect 6.0 for DOS. So, that amounts to continual fornication and theft, two activities that in your rendition of the universe should have robbed me of my divine creative spark long before I ever moved in with %@&@^*!!.

Then there's that email of yours that you copied me on last October, not long after I temporarily and ill-advisedly took my site down. You remember it, I'm sure -- long on false piety, short on sense. It was the one you sent to a long list of fellow Saints, in which you told them that their prayers had been answered because I had finally ceased to strive against the Kingdom of God.

You had to copy it to me, didn't you? You had to let me and the whole rest of the world -- well, the portion of it that was important to you, anyway -- see what a faithful, righteous, amd God-fearing man you are. Well, I've seen, all right. They have words to describe the kind of person I've seen. They're not pretty words. They're words like "hypocrite" and "Pharisee" and "whited sepulchre." They're ugly words for an ugly and cruel person that I wouldn't cross the street to shake hands with.

The devil can quote scripture, you know, and so can you, and so can I. I can quote the words of Jesus himself, who wielded those very ugly words as weapons against ugly men like you:

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments. . . . Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. . . . Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:5, 27, 28, 33.)

You sent that email out to so many people not out of concern for my soul, but so you could "be seen of men." It's lucky for you that there really isn't a hell, because if there were then your own professed god's words would have damned you to it. Have a nice day, asshole.

I know nothing about LDS, except from the two ardent missionaries who came to my door a couple of years ago. We had what I guess you would describe a "discussion," after which they left me copy of the book of Mormon. (I did read some of it, and the literature they left, but I gotta admit, it was too far-fetched from my Southern Baptist upbringing, so I didn't pursue it.) The fact that the young men seemed so earnest and serious is one reason that I enjoyed your bio and particularly the "Terror..." piece. I was at work when I stumbled upon your site, and I couldn't stop reading until I had finished most of your site. Deadlines be damned! Your style of writing is wonderful, and funny.

I'm a liberal 56-year old who thrives on modern rock and triathlons. Not the usual.

Keep up the writing. I wish I had your talent! I'm waiting for more chapters on your life story.

Pat, you help make my life worth living. Rock on!

Hi Bill,

I'm always laughing so hard when reading your site :-) Well, just wanted to tell you that I've moved my site to a faster server. The address is now:

http://www.et.htwk-leipzig.de/student/mormonen/

Keep up the good work.

Thanks, Gunar! Once again, I urge all of you who read German to visit Gunar's excellent site.

For a six year old, I guess the snake story is pretty good; however, at your age you should know better than to take the name of Poe in vain! Repent sinner! Hee, hee, hee. God, I haven't gotten to call anyone to repentance since I was in the bishopric. Yeah, I'm feeling silly. It's the weekend and I am full of anticipation that you have been busy the past two weeks preparing a new "fix" for the "Roadies" who visit your site . . . so, this weekend?

From your mouth to the ears of an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters!

Just got through reading "Better Duck, You Schmuck" in the Postmarked Clueless section. It killed me man, really had me laughing. Remind me never to piss you off, I don't think I could take the abuse. Glad you're back.

Thanks. I'm glad to be back, too. I really missed playing the part of a shock-jock on the Internet equivalent of talk radio.

Bill: (may I call you Bill?)

Nice to have you back on the airwaves. Congrats on your new job. Glad to see more installments of "Apostasy". You certainly don't stay lonely, judging by all the mail you get. Anyway, I have a few questions about the church if you'll kindly indulge me. My very brief trial period in the church left me curious about some things:

a) How do they account for all of the changes over the years in the revelations - the differences between them in the BOC and the D&C?

b) I noticed a lot of suspicion and cynicism. As an example of suspicion, no one in the ward I attended could believe that I could be friends with a woman without there being "something going on" between us. I mean how paranoid can you be?

c) As such good Christians, why is the favorite subject of so many of them money?

Anyway just a few odd things I noticed during my "free trial offer". I'll close for now. Good to have you back, and a happy 30th to you! Don't get toooooo shitfaced!

Some off-the-cuff answers:

a) The clever ones keep attention of the unclever ones directed away from the Book of Commandments, like magicians performing sleight of hand.

b) The repressed ones project their forbidden desires onto everyone else, thus making themselves feel better about their pitiable lives.

c) Because Mormons have to buy their way into heaven, via tithing. No one gets into the Temple without paying it.

As it happens, I did end up getting toooooo shitfaced on my 30^th birthday, for the first and only time in my life, but thanks for the sentiment, anyway.

Brother Shunn!

Did I read correctly that you had a hundred rejections before your first sale? God! I wonder how many good writers gave up and died simply from lack of persistence. That means, I suppose, that I should not be deterred by a measly rejection slip or ninety.

Thanks, Bill. You're an inspiration.

You should not be deterred in the least. You total and mine combined are still a far cry from a record. Write on!

I think your site is great! I'm still a practicing Mormon, but find that a lot of what I'm learning contradicts itself more and more. Your openess and vast knowledge of both sides of the Mormon issue is a refreshing venue for web readers.

I laughed until I cried when I read your last essay on Mormon Mythology! The "I'm So Special" issue really hit home. I am the mother of two sons and I have never been relieved of hearing how "special" my children are! After all, get this: My sons were not only born "in The One True Church" but "Under the Covenant" are White, American males born in the "Latter Days" to "Mormon Pioneer Settlers" Their "Priesthood lineage" is decended only four generations from Brigham Young himself. Their paternal ancestry is directly decended from Joseph Fielding Smith, and my sons are -- now ain't this awesome -- were born the grandson's of a Stake President. (oh, and they were born in UTAH--wow, huh?) Wow, my sons truly are special, you bet, yes they are!!! What do you suppose the odds of how special MY kids are!?

Far, far less than the odds of life on this planet having arisen spontaneously out of the primoridal muck! Consider yourself a fortunate mother!

Hey Bro!

I don't know what you were tokin' when you wrote Mormon Mythology - Exhibit 2 - I'm Special . . . but whatever it was, you got any more? Made me feel really special . . . but then . . . Hate to burst your bubble Bro, but you think you're special? Well, I figure I'm probably more special. I mean, it's one thing to be born into the ONE TRUE CHURCH in the LAST DAYS on the most wicked world of all of Heavenly Father's creations (and what about the chances of actually being born in Zion as opposed to, say, L.A.), but it's quite another thing to be born with a REALLY, REALLY special ancestry. I mean, like, how many special people like us can also claim that we have a real live apostle in our lineage??? (Well, actually O.P. [that's Orson Pratt for the folks who aren't quite so special] is dead now, but he lives in our hearts.) Ok, ok, so, there may be some that are more special 'cause their apotle dad or granddad is still alive, but still, methinks it's still pretty special to have O.P. as a great-great granddad. (So what if he had five wives and lots and lots of other little offspring; O.P.'s wife that begat my line was his favorite. Heck, he picked her up while he was on a mission to Scotland.) But that's not all. Not only O.P. is an apostolic ancestor (who also happened to edit the BofM into the current chapters and verses), but also Marriner Wood Merrill was of apostolic dimensions, and what dimensions (spelled F-A-T) they were. (The dimensions, incidentally seemed to get passed on to his posterity more successfully than his apostolic calling.) Ok, so I got TWO, count 'em, TWO apostolic spirit dads looking over me. How many you got? Ready to cry "uncle" yet? Well, for good measure, let me thow some rhythm into the mix. Every time y'all wanna start getting puffed up with pride about how special you think you are, hum a few bars of High on a Mountain Top, or Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words to Each Other, or Welcome, Welcome Sabbath Morning, and remember, there are even fewer folks that can claim Ebenezer . . . So, two apostles and a Tabernacle Choir director/composer . . . whadda ya think. The only thing I can't figure out is . . . why the hell haven't I been translated yet??? I guess God is like the rest of us, He's just saving the best for last.

Love your site Bill. Wish you could find more time for updates. I mean, I take the time to check it out daily. Gotta run. Meet ya on a cloud someday. Give my best to %@&@^*!!.

P.S. If any of you other children of the special O.P. or M.W.W. or E.B. out there are offended by my making light of this shit and wanna call me to repentance, save it. I repented last night, right after I got laid.

Well, I see your MoTab director and two apostles, and raise you a William Clayton, that special fellow who wrote new words to an English tavern song and came up with the hymn that kept our pioneer ancestors schlepping their skinny butts across the plains. That's right -- the lyricist of "Come, Come, Ye Saints" is one of my direct ancestors.

And apparently you followed his admonition last night, right before you repented, you naughty boy!

I'm an active member of the Church, and I've been aware of your web sight for quite a while now. I enjoyed your memoir on you prior life as a terrorist. Pretty damn funny! Anyway, my reason for writing you is out of curiosity. Did something bad happen to you while you were active in the Church? Did Karowyn (sp?) have anything to do with your leaving? I have been a member of the Church since Christmas Eve 1989. I was raised Catholic. Although I don't believe the doctrine of the Catholic Church, I don't think I could ever actively publish anything anti-Catholic. I'm not bashing you in any way. I just have a curiosity about your motivation. The way I think of it is simple. Even if you have serious questions or objections to the LDS Church, you can't deny that the values it teaches its members are rock solid and time tested. Is Joseph Smith a fraud? That's a very good question, and one you have to answer yourself through whatever means brings you to peace with the idea. Is the Book of Mormon scripture? Again, a good question that requires deep thought and consideration (and yes prayer can definately help).

I'm sure you have received plenty of letters from "concerned" members of the Church, attempting to apologise for all the wrongs the Church may have done to you bla bla bla. And I'm sure you have gotten your fair share of hate mail because of your web site. But I'm a no nonsense kind of person, and I respect a person who tactfully says what's on their mind. Here's what's on my mind. What the hell is your problem with the Church? (My tone of voice and facial expression when saying this mimmics that of Arnold from "Different Strokes") I appreciate you may have many disagreements with Church doctrine, but what about the Church causes you so much consternation as to require you to devote such time and energy to a web published page devoted to focussing simply on the "bad" parts of the Church?

I am truely curious, and again not judging or bashing. Could I maybe encourage you to devote a little pocket of your web site to more possitive aspects of the Church? it doesn't hurt to ask.

P.S. I thought my 1220 on the SATs was pretty good. Yours was ass-kickin'. What was it? 15?? or something? Not bad bruddah.

It's my Web site, and I'll bash if I want to. As for the rest of your questions, I've addressed them ad nauseum elsewhere on the site. Seek and ye shall find.

I was in Kaysville this weekend (tried to reach Seletha but she wasn't home!) and heard a joke you might appreciate, if you haven't heard it yet. Why did California get all the Mexicans and homosexuals and Utah get all the Mormons? Because California got to choose first!

By the way, you really should see Kaysville if you haven't been back lately, which I doubt you have. It's a booming metropolis!! They even have a McDonalds!!

Good joke! Say hello to Kaysville for me next time you're there. I don't think even the presence of a McDonald's could lure me back.

I'm interested in your site, but can barely read anything on it. The font and colors you use show up on my monitor as a faint, grainy semblance of text. I'm using Windows 95 and Netscape Communicator. Just thought I'd let you know.

Um, whoops, sorry. With any luck, that problem is solved now.

By the way, what do you think of the new color scheme? I'm quite pleased with it myself. I call it "Peanut Butter Surprise."

Hello! I received your e-mail and accepted your offer to check out the new site. I must say I was disappointed to see you go in February and I'm happy to see that you're back. Right off the bat, let me say that your new site is probably the most visually appealing of all my bookmarked sites. It's simple and effective. I do have to admit, however, that I've never been crazy about frames . . . just a matter of personal taste, I suppose.

Anyway, I wasn't able to find anything wrong with your site as I wandered through the Mormon section, the letters, etc. I haven't had a chance to check out any of your new writing yet but I'll get there. All the links worked as they were supposed to. I enjoyed catching up on the last few months of "Voices from the Dust."

Well, now that you're back, I'll be a frequent visitor to your website again and I'll be sure and let you know what I think.

By the way, I remember you mentioning several months ago that "Terror on Flight 789" was being considered for a movie. What ever became of that?

Best of luck to you, and, again, it's good to have you back.

Good to hear from you again, Paul! Here's how I answered the screenplay query in the "Infrequently Asked Questions" section of my old Web site:

"During the fall of 1996 I did indeed write a screenplay, The Accidental Terrorist, in collaboration with my partners Christopher J. Rivera and James Meek. (The story is a fictionalization of my exploits as a missionary/terrorist in the Great White North.) We never sold our script; rather, it was optioned by Maple Palm Productions, which means Dave Thomas (SCTV, Strange Brew, Grace Under Fire) and crew acquired the right to attempt to produce the screenplay for a specified period of time -- in this instance, six months. The option, however, suffered an untimely demise, cruelly slain by timidity and unimaginativeness. Before the ink on our contracts had even considered drying, Maple Palm's business manager decided that our screenplay was unmarketable and axed the deal we'd so carefully worked out with the assistant producer. (What -- the heartland's not ready for a feel-good comedy about a bumbling but loveable Mormon missionary who triumphs over adversity through pluck and good fortune? Not even with Leo DiCaprio and Jada Pinkett among the principles?) Ah, well -- that's Hollywood for you, where the bullshit flies thicker than lightning bugs in August. But rest assured that we're pursuing other deals, and thinking really hard about our next screenplay . . . "

Thanks for writing!

Remember me? I'm the motorcycle mama Relief Society reject with a sonofabitch for a father. (Very accurate assessment of him, BTW.)

You asked us to critique your new site. I like it a lot. It took a few minutes to find my way around, but once I did, I found all the old hang-outs. I couldn't find the "Loud Laughter" part, though. Was hoping you added to it. I read some of your newly added SF short stories, too. I haven't been through all of them, but I enjoyed the one about the choir boys.

I finally got a hold of a copy of the book "The Mormon Murders". I had a hard time getting it; reserved it at the library and it took weeks and weeks. All the Mormons in town must want to read it! Anyway, I've seen a lot of parallels in Mark Hoffman and my dad. It's been really frightening to see how twisted the whole Mormon culture is. I recommmend that everyone reads that book if they really want a view of Mormonism.

Well, thanks for posting and answering my letter. And thanks for your new web page. Keep the stories coming! I enjoy them. Best wishes to you and yours.

Thanks for the kind words! Unfortunately, "Loud Laughter" no longer exists in its original form. I've broken out some of the features it used to contain, such as "No Man Knows My Pancreas" and "Postmarked: Clueless," and given them their own standalone sections. Others, like "The Great B.Y.U. Coed Joke Project" and "The Nauvoo Cabaret," have not yet been incorporated into the new site, but will return soon. Still others I've let die a quiet death -- like "The Wish List," which was no longer serving any useful purpose. (For the last couple of months, the only submissions I was receiving for "The Wish List" said things like, "I wish people would stop picking on us poor Mormons!")

I'm also glad you liked my stories, though I must point out that I've had them up on the Web since before I ever posted any Mormon-related material. Of course, now that people can actually find them, maybe they'll start getting more hits. ;>

I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your site. I connected to "Mormon Matter" the first time through "Recovery from Mormonism," Eric Kettunen's site. I still giggle when I see the coffee beans you plastered all over your site! You have a wonderful sense of humor (to say the least) and your writing style is great. I love it. I'm in the process of reading "Terror on Flight 789." I love it! Thank you for every part of your site. It makes it a bit easier to deal with some of the crap we have all been through as Mormons and exmormons.

By the way, you handled Monsieur Ivie (the schmuck) and the Perotista beautifully. Heehee. You're good. Thank you!!

I feel somewhat guilty accepting praise for shooting fish in a barrel -- but what the hell. Thanks!

You're back! Hurray!

I found this site maybe two months ago, when it was still Mormon Matter, and when I read that you were leaving it I was very sad. :( It's one of the most informative, consistently well-written sites I've found. It's especcially impressive that you manage to defend your beliefs without attacking others for having different ones (unless they attack you first, but hey, self-defense). "Terror" was one of the funniest stories I've ever read. I thought only high school could inspire such misguided obedience! I still can't believe you did that. Anyway, I'm of to check out more of your site. Just thought I'd tell you how glad we are you're back.

Misguided obedience turns up in the darnedest places. Just take one look at all the suits and ties in the neighborhood where I work and you'll agree. I mean, why don't these guys just all revolt against the dress code? Surely they couldn't fire everyone on Wall Street?

Having had the misfortune of growing up behind the Zion curtain with a brain, a uterus and a less than "white and delightsome" skin, I find myself still happily identifying as "anti-mormon" when non-Utahns ask their inevitable question re my birthplace.

Unfortunately, sometimes that annoying dogma comes snapping after one's karma, so my far more Aryan niece has signed up with your old team, not out of religious seeking, but simply, it seems, for that "special, I'm a member" feeling. Quelle tragique!

Anyway, I now find myself cruising websites, looking for uplifting tales of people who've decided to come up for air and, thus, found your tales. First of all, your site's so gorgeous: such a lovely shade of mood indigo! My feelings are mirrored in that tint (read in your most goth poetic voice).

I'm a bit embarrassed to find myself understanding so much of your missionary bits. It must have been in the water. You do have quite an intriguing writing style. I'll have to come back some day and check out the non-Mo' fiction. Oh, but thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to revise Mo' history. I really think my version made a better foundation for a corpora, er . . . religion than Joe's 2nd or 3rd rewrite. (Please note that I send this missive off to you with with more than a few feathers ruffled at your choice of "send" command verbage -- it's never easy for a control-freak to "submit".)

Thank you again for a lovely surfing session, anyway! Keep away from that Faith! I'm sure you can be perfectly decent without it.

Oh, dear. I hope your niece comes to her senses. If she can't live without belonging to some larger entity, you might suggest something more healthy -- like a bowling league.

Thanks for writing, and drop me a line again some time. Any friend of Duke Ellington is a friend of mine.

Just read all of the latest letters in The Peanut Gallery. Someone remarking about the missing WISH LIST prompted your comment about people not really giving any MORE wishes except "I wish people would quit picking on us poor Mormons."

I got the impression that it was pointless to send any more wishes because we weren't going to see any more posted. Your site was pretty much stopped, finished.

I do have one more wish that I wished I had posted earlier:

I wish the Mormon Church would hurry up and put out the 'correctly translated' Bible that they keep talking about that they believe in.

Where is the Bible restored to its pristine and original condition, complete with all the missing books mentioned in the Book of Mormon, such as the books by Neum, Zenos and others?

And if it is not "translated correctly," then the Church should get its act together and employ its Prophet to translate the Greek and Hebrew words to the correct English words to show up the bumbling boobs that pass for "scholars" in the Christian/Jewish universities, who after thousands of years still can't seem to understand Greek and Hebrew to translate it properly.

Instead, here we have this King James Version with some of Joseph Smith's revisions as footnotes and as a section in the back. And no missing books are restored! And they call the coming of the Mormon Church the "Restoration?" Methinks there is no restoration until the Bible is complete with all the missing texts and books.

It is logical that a restoration means restoring the Bible to what it once was, not merely adding the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, of which most of their contents are admittedly never part of the original Bible but are something 'extra.'

I am still WAITING for that restored Bible! 167 years (since 1830) is more than long enough to get this Bible out! I don't know how Mormons can stand carrying around an incomplete and untrustworthy Bible, when there is a PROPHET in Salt Lake City who should complete the job Joseph Smith apparently never finished. I'm WAITING!

(end of wish)

Sorry, Bill, just had to get this off my chest. I simply cannot stand too much more of the 'correctly translated' stuff in the Mormon literature. It is probably just as well that I didn't post it on the Wish List at the time. It's lengthy enough as is.

Lengthy, but definitely worth saying.

Generally, when I visit your site, it is for a break from the rigors of the work day, while I'm still at work. Unfortunately, my computer at work doesn't have a sound card so I had never been able to listen to the Wenatchee Rap. Well, this morning, taking a day off work, I did some surfing from home where my system is slightly more advanced than my system at work, which means . . . yep, you guessed it . . . the artwork from Amsterdamsexx.com downloads tons faster . . . (talk about digressing). Anyway, after my appendages recovered (read whatever you want into that, but don't dirty your keyboard), I managed to make it to the Wenatchee Rap. Great piece of work. But I think you oughta think about a remake at your next missionary reunion. You'd be sure to be the biggest fuckin' hit there!

Viz a viz Road to Apostasy . . . now you're just teasing us. There I was, all poised for some great sex, and you couldn't even make at BYU in chapter 6. Pretty poor Bro'. Even I got laid at BYU. Well, I guess I'll just have to be patient until chapter 20. You promised, remember? Til' we meet again . . . watch out Amsterdam, here I come, again.

Oh, the lurid places you'll go in future installments . . . Hang in there!

I stumbled upon your web-site rather late (end of May l997) via Eric Kettunen's "Recovery From Mormonism" web-site and have found it to be one of the most fascinating regarding religion and spiritual matters (or lack thereof). After devouring most of its contents over the next several weeks, I was dismayed to stumble upon your Web Adieu letter from earlier this year. Your return to the Web is most welcome.

Being a life-long (or as long as I can remember) agnostic, I have always had a perverse fascination with people who have or profess a deep religious faith, totally unable to comprehend the mindset behind it. To me, Mormons seem to be among the most devout and thus the most unfathomable. Your web-site has explained much of what accounts for this. The LDS church is unique in the way it intertwines religion with every facet of family and its society. Many of the letters in Recovery From Mormonism, in which ex-Mormons describe the anguish and isolation from family and friends following their decision to leave the LDS church, are especially poignant for precisely this reason.

If I may, I'd like to offer a few comments on your web-site. I find the discussions regarding correctness and lack of internal consistency regarding LDS doctrine and scriptural matters the least effective aspect. Refuting any religious doctrine with reason and logical thought is totally beside the point and is tantamount to building a straw man and then blowing him down -- it's just too easy. Fact is, ALL religions are primarily a mixture of mythology and folklore, taken literally by only the most fervent believers (I guess that does describe many Mormons, however). If organized religion has any lasting value it is as a source of imaginative literature, although it pales in comparison to classic Greek mythology.

Your autobiographical writings, however, make for compelling reading and are the strength of your web-site. I have learned far more about the LDS church from reading Terror on Flight 789 and The Road to Apostasy than from reading many other sources. I strongly urge you to continue working on The Road to Apostasy; your writing comes alive in the retelling of your Mormon upbringing and experiences.

One final piece of unsolicited (always the worst kind) advice. Over the year-and-a-half your site has been in existence, your e-mail responses have become progressivly harsher and less tolerant. The person described by your former missionary companion Michael Reed Gregersen in his Voices From the Dust letter of 7-2-96 and the persona coming through in many of your recent responses (excluding responses to hate mail and Postmarked: Clueless-type individuals -- entirely justified here) are different beasts. His letter was quite sincere and moving, obviously written by someone who still considers you a close friend, which is why I believe his description of you circa 1988 is quite accurate. This can also be seen by going back to your earlier responses in Voices From the Dust. For me, the earlier responses from a "kinder, gentler" William Perry Shunn are more telling and effective.

While you undoubtedly still have a residual of anger and bitterness for years of unhappiness as a Mormon, an inevitable sense of time lost that can never be recouped, the danger of succumbing to it is that it becomes difficult to prevent it from creeping into your writing. Your humor, wit, and gentle sarcasm in retelling very emotionally-charged and difficult material is one of your greatest attributes as a writer.

With that quibble aside, I'll sign off by saying that your web-site is a valuable contribution to the Web. In addition to providing many hours of enjoyable reading, the insight it provides into the LDS church and the forum it provides for discussion of religious matters by believers and non-believers are the sort of thing that, at times, makes surfing the Web a worthwhile adventure.

Best wishes to you in your career, your writing and your continued spiritual (or aspiritual) journey through life.

Those who have never endured lifelong brainwashing would probably have difficulty appreciating the importance of building straw men and blowing them down. It reminds us that those terrors really are imaginary. This is why children find dressing up like monsters at Halloween so much fun, and it is why I will continue to write "Mormon Mythology."

I must say I was rivited to your story of growing up Mormon for a good hour or so. I can hardly wait till you write the further chapters.

I can only chuckle at the apostasy you mention. I think I am experiencing it myself, though in complete opposite manner than you. You see, I am Catholic and 33 years old. Went to Sunday Mass regularly until just a few years ago. It just seemed that one day something didn't seem quite right. You expressed the same feeling in your writings... something that you can't quite explain is missing in your life.

Catholics, as you may be aware, are big on confession and pennance, and the priest has the vested athority to absolve one of their sins. However, I didn't consider myself a sinner because I lost some of the belief in the church. In our local parish, the priest didn't take my feelings very well, which was all the more disturbing to how I felt.

Along about that time, the missionaries stopped by my house. Now I had been through Salt Lake City before, and felt in complete awe beside the Temple. I was not completely ignorant to Mormon doctrine, but as a Catholic, even a confused one, falling from the church was unthinkable. Anyway, I must have spent a good two hours of the gentlemans' time. I learned that there are a great many similiarities between the Catholocs and Mormons, perhaps more similiarity than any other two faiths. I could surmise a reason... Catholic doctrine teaches that when Peter built the church upon the rock, that was the Catholic church. Seems the Mormons join in where the Catholics went astray a few hundred years after Jesus' death.

Now understand I am *still* a Catholic, albait a non-practicing one. A pair of missionaries visited again a few days ago. Again I spent considerable time talking with them, though made no commitments or appointments for further meetings. However, I think I suprised them by knowing the Book of Mormon in considerable detail, along with the History of Joseph Smith and the Doctrine and Covenants. It was a very pleasant conversation, actually.

Where I have my problem is the "pray to God for the answer." I've never been an overly religious person, though I do like a bit of faith and something to believe in in my life. However, that answer never came. Nor did any such answer regarding my own Catholic church. I do find the Book of Mormon facinating, and frankly I cannot disprove it. Personal feelings seem to favor the fact that Jesus certainly visited places other than the areas neighboring Isreal after his assention.

I have not yet attended a Mormon service, though I'm beginning to feel tempted to do so. Hehehe... if nothing else, the people I have known that *are* church members are among the kindest folk I've ever met.

Seems strange writing this. You are telling your as-of-yet-incomplete story of why you left the church, and I'm trying to explain why I may explore the possibility of joining. (Of course I have a few vices that would have to go... I smoke, I drink caffinated drinks, and occasionally alcohol. Of course there is the matter of the 10% that would really take some discipline on my part.) Perhaps the biggest stumbling block I have on why I haven't moved faster is my views on marriage. I'm 33 as I said, and single. I *like* being single. Frankly, I have little feeling towards woman and sex in general. I'm not gay... there's just no feeling either way. I'm not unhappy with this fact, though I feel the church may have some problems with it.

What to do? I'm not sure. I haven't found anything yet to convince me the Mormon faith is a complete lie, just as I've found nothing to say Catholocism is. (Though I must admit I do have reservations of certain parts of the doctrine.)

Anyway, I thought you might like to read a note from someone who is considering the possibility of an unthinkable switch from the Catholic faith.

Take care... (please continue your story soon!)

Well, the most obvious schism between Catholics and Mormons is that Mormons believe the Catholic Church is the "great and abominable church" (1 Nephi 13:8) and the "mother of harlots" (1 Nephi 13:34). Now, the first thing I want you to do is to ask yourself if you can put your faith in a church that considers such hate-speech to be scriptural.

Next, I want you to do some hard, deep thinking about other aspects of Mormonism. Wouldn't you be doing yourself a bigger favor if you disciplined yourself to save and invest 10% of your income, rather than paying it out for the support of a bunch of gray old men who already run one of the richest churches in the world? Shouldn't you be actively investigating the question of whether or not the Book of Mormon can be proven to be false? (For starters, look here, and here, and here.) For balance, shouldn't you be reading books that discuss the other side of the Mormon experience -- books like The Mormon Murders by Steven Naifeh and Gregory White Smith, Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake and Shot in the Heart by Mikal Gilmore? Shouldn't you still be praying and trying to get an answer -- and recognizing what it means when one doesn't come?

Good luck, and my best to you.

I just wanted to drop a quick line and let you know I saw my letter posted on your web page. Thank you. After you asked for permission I knew you would post it, yet I kept telling myself he will probably change his mind. I'm glad I was wrong, but man did I ever experience some strong emotion as I read through it. At first I was thrilled to see it then I started shaking so bad I thought Alma the younger and I were going to share a similar experience. I couldn't believe how scared I got. I was just sure someone from my wife's family or our local Ward would see it and know instantly who wrote it. After a couple hours though I felt the beginnings of liberation and realized it would be a blessing if someone did. One of the things I did not mention in my previous letter is the fact my wife does not want anyone to know how I feel about Mormonism. She wants me to keep it a secret. I should mention the Bishop knows so most probably his counselors do also. Other than those three, the rest of the flock still think I am a believer. Boy am I being naive. I am sure more than those three know, however I guess it gives my wife a warm fuzzy believing they are the only ones with knowledge of this dreaded secret. Anyway I have never wanted to feel like a hypocrite and yet that's exactly how I feel. My wife says its nobodies' business. She does not want to be embarrassed. I have tried to explain to her that I am not ashamed of what I believe. Unfortunately it does not matter whether I am ashamed or not I should respect her enough to keep my mouth shut. She is embarrassed!

I started this letter on June 30th, here it is July 14th and I still have not sent it. I just read the e-mail from the person with less than "White and delightsome skin" and wondered how many Mormon girls were at that exact moment trying to turn their skin a deep dark brown. I'd hazard a guess that when she was growing up there were many Mormon girls trying to do the same thing. What a pity she was made to feel less than acceptable to the good White Mormons. I can't speak for Utah Mormons but mid-western Mormon girls do lay out to turn that white meat into dark meat. Even 20 years ago when I was in High School I knew a couple Mormon girls, at the time I knew nothing about their beliefs, they always had beautiful tans in the summer. Well this was supposed to be a short note so I'll say adios. All the best to you Bill and may all your mistakes be little ones.

p.s. Hope you don't mind me considering you a friend since we've never met. But Webster says a friend is someone who - supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement.

You were brave to let me post your letter, and I hope you find the consequences all beneficial. (And no need to soft-pedal your considering me a friend. I'm honored.)

My name is Rory Richardson and I live in Mesa, Arizona. Up front I will let you know that I'm very active in the LDS church and also served a mission almost 19 years ago. I read your piece on "Terror on Flight 789." I was very entertained and enjoyed it very much. That's an experiece that should be shared with others. I was almost brought to tears many times from laughter. Those of us who have served missions have certainly had both good and challenging experiences as missionaries. I would never change my mission for anything because of what I learned out there.

Anyway, I'm always saddened when one chooses to leave the church for whatever reason. We all have our free agency to do as we please and I certainly respect you for that. I'm sure that it wasn't an easy choice for you and I hope you do find peace and happiness in your life. I may be wrong, but I feel that you have alot of resentment towards your father and deep down inside, that may have been a contributing factor in leaving the church.

I hope your novels get published because I think you're a terrific writer. I would be' very interested in reading yours books. I'll keep your name in the back of my mind each time I buy a book. Who knows, maybe your name will some day be right up there with Stephen King and John Grisham. Again, good luck to you.

Much of the resentment I feel toward my father stems from the fact that he made me feel as though he would only like me were I a fine upstanding young exemplar of Mormon manhood. That more than anything else may actually have kept me in the Church for many years past the time when I should have left, and only made apostatizing harder in the end.

One of the most informative and useful pieces of information I found on the LDS church was on Eric Kettunen's "Recovery From Mormonism" web-site. He wrote an article called "The Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism" in which he listed and discussed what he felt were (in his own words) the fourteen fundamental articles or beliefs of Mormons, paralleling the concept of the 14 articles of faith that Mormon missionaries are instructed to teach. Frankly, I was amazed at how far it deviated from traditional Western Judao-Christian thought and how truly bizarre it is.

Because the actual teachings and doctrines of the Mormon church (aside from the social and sexual taboos) are virtually unknown to non-LDS individuals, it was refreshing to have someone outside the mainstream LDS church who is knowledgable and literate regarding Mormon doctrine describe the fundamental tenets that are the core of and are unique to Mormonism. As an ex-Mormon, Eric's article was light years better than any of the sanitized writings I have seen on LDS web-sites.

Since you are obviously quite informed and fluid in the specific teachings of the LDS church, I think it would be quite useful if you would do something similar on your web-site. Please write an article or list of what you feel are the fundamental points of Mormon doctrine from your unique perspective with whatever commentary you feel is appropriate. I beleive this will be quite interesting to many of the visitors to your web-site and may give some people investigating or considering joining the LDS church pause to reconsider. Thanks.

Since Eric has done such a marvelous job with his fourteen Articles of Faith -- and by the way, Joseph Smith's Articles of Faith numbered only thirteen -- I don't feel any compelling need to duplicate his effort or to compete with him and produce my own list. I have, however, inaugurated my "Mormon Mythology" series for the purpose of discussing the Mormon beliefs that strike me as the most bizarre, self-contradictory, and perilous. Watch for the second installment to show up soon.

(Of course, if you want a list from me badly enough, you could always commission it.)

I've been pissed at the dysfunction of my Mormon upbringing for a long time now. Even tho I left the church over twenty years ago, I still can't get parents and sibilings to accept the fact. Their "sorrow" for my loss keeps me from associating with them. I recently declared to those of them who would listen, that I was unable to tolerate their obsession with Mormonism. I am amazed at the blindness of its followers, and completely disgusted with the leaders of the church. They are worse than politians as they not only "steal" the money of its members, they thrive on the collection of their souls! SICK! I try not to bash much these days, and I refuse any discussion with missionaries or members as they are as narrow and closed minded as any red-neck bigot I've ever met.

It's a comfort to realize (through your site) that there are others out there equally intolerant of this insidious cult. Keep up the good work!

P.S. I have my own church now - "The Church of the Born Again Comedians" We swim (and baptize) in the pool on sundays, and our sacrament is cigarettes and cheese.

I absolutely sympathize with you, but to be fair, not all Mormons are narrow and closed-minded. Just see my new pal Bongo's letter for proof.

So. Like your site. REALLY like the redesign (I've been keeping up on you, unannounced, for almost two years now), but I'll get to that later.

Comments. Feedback, right? That's what I'm supposed to do, so I'll do it for a while.

The "great sacrifice" piece. Great. HIL-arious. loved it. Don't necessarily agree with it, but that, I'm afraid, is again reserved for later.

The MorMADLIB thing is cool too. I'm afraid my outcome didn't make much sense, but neither does the original [official] version, if you boil it down.

Okay. I've fed back, something which reminds me uncomfortably of regurgitation, so I'll move on.

I like you. I think you're NEAT-O. I'm on the "other" left of Temple Square, meaning that I'm an almost-100%-believing-in-the-whole-JS/BY-story kinda guy who despises (too strong) the institution of The Church. I don't like The Church. I like GBH okay, but The Church isn't any good. Uninstitutional chaos would be good for the faith (to which I adhere). I'm a reformed mormon, of sorts. Temples? Cool. Sacrament? Cool. Burning in the Bosom? Cool, but not on a first date.

My attitudes run the gamut from "lets all preach the gospel" super-active home-teaching to "I much prefer the road to apostasy to the strait and narrow, thank you" bong hits and whiskey (single malt scotch, if you please). Right now, I'm in an upswing. MAYBE I'll even make it to church again someday. The whiskey is fading out (faster than the bong hits, though) and the scriptures are becoming less and less blurry. I may even dust them off one of these days.

No point. Just wanted to let you know that I think your site is really groovy, lets go out to a movie . . . Seen contact? It's good. Seen Hercules? It reminded me too much of Saturday's Warrior. Seen Saturdays Warrior? Really shitty production, but the music! The magic! The message! OY VEY!

I was going to ask you if I could steal your site design for one of my pages, but have since thought the better of it. I am a child of god, with infinite potential. I should be able to code some creative html on my own.

Nuff said.

Interesting. I've always found the message of Saturday's Warrior -- that teen rebellion makes moms have miscarriages and keeps precious spirits from getting bodies -- fairly repulsive, not to mention doctrinally unsound (from a Mormon standpoint). But yeah, it does have some good tunes.

I don't worship at the shrine of the bong, but if you're ever in the Apple I'd be happy to raise a pint of Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout to your glass of whisky. Anything I can do to keep you on the road to apostasy . . .

As I wander your site, I somedays I findmyself thinking "What a waste of talent and a loss for the church". In my fantasies I imagine the great sucesses you could achieve in the name of God with your talent and wit.

Other times, I visit your site and see myself as I once was (and in many ways still am). I just finished "Chairman of the Board", and as I read it, I was reminded of a story I wrote on my mission that so alarmed my second compaion (who stumbled upon my writting at 3am one morning) that he called the mission president, who later convinced me to burn the manuscript. An action that I now regret.

Not that I question the wisdom of the action, I find myself missing that work as a part of me. Unfortunatly, I have been unable to rewrite it with same dark passion the initail work had. Of such things are paridises lost.

My point, I supose, is to keep up the good work, find the peace and happiness you seek, but most importantly, ingore us self-rightous fools who where the holier than thou crown.

Oh, man, for a minute there I thought you were going to start riffing on that old eternal-progression theme: "As Bill is, Anonymous Reader once was; as Anonymous Reader is, so Bill may become . . ." Thank God you didn't.

That's a real tragedy about your burned manuscript. A lot of writers wish they could see their teenage scribblings go up in smoke, but but not me. I find them a fascinating guide to what was going on in my head back in those days. May you quickly recover that lost dark passion.

Great to see you're back! Thanks for the latest installment of the "Road to Apostasy"- I've been suffering withdrawal symptoms for several months now. Keep up the great work and WELCOME BACK! BTW, nice new look to the site, too.

Glad I could get you your fix. And stay tuned -- I'm cooking up another hit for you soon.

Welcome back!

Here is my humble apraisal of your new joint. I like the minimalist approach to the graphics, and the colors are pleasing, and I'm glad to see your latest addition to the R. to A. I'll be hanging on every word I'll tell ya.

I must also say that I prefer the non-frames version -- it's easier to read long documents if the window is a little bigger. (But then I like frames as much as I like blinking text...just my little irrational prejudice.) Keep up the good work!

<retching noises> Sorry, but just the mention of blinking text gets my gorge airborne. Other than that, thanks for your note!

Ok, vacation time is over. You need to get your butt in gear and update some of your stuff for us loyal followers who keep your website going by needling you into ignoring you mammon-making endeavors. So, I got a topic for you to follow the Great Sacrifice article. Namely, let's answer the question why, if God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, then why do WE have to put forth all the effort to have a relationship with him. Christ, if I did what He did, I'd have my kids taken away by Child Protective Services. I'd wonder if I'd ever had sex! Think about it. He makes us a "New World" that is like some He's made before, but we've never been there. But does He take us to this New World? No, He sends us there, but tells us to hurry home. But to make things more interesting, He makes us forget everything about our Old World, as well as our Old Man. If that isn't enough, if we want a relationship with Him, it HAS to be on HIS terms. We have to go to HIM. We have to ASK. We have to SEEK. What did He say, "Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you." Hey, DAD, how about you comin' around occassionally to visit?!? Seems like someone with so much power, knowledge, and wisdom could put a little effort into establishing a healthy relationship with His kids. And for all you offended Saints, let me tell you, after 42 years of living with the Church, as an active, inactive, disfellowshipped, excommunicated, rebaptized, probationer, etc. Mormon, I've never been able to come up with a good answer to the question, "Why do I have to have faith?" And all your pat answers about, "Well, if you're given the knowledge, you won't appreciate it as much" or "Because if you know before you're ready, it'll condemn you" or any other such tripe is just that, tripe. The fact is, people act on knowledge, and by God, if I had a Father in Heaven who was a little more free with His resources, I think I might be a bit more willing to use those resources. But, like you Bill, I got no use for a Dad who shows the type of favoritism that Elohim shows. What, did my (earthly) dad not pray for me hard enough, or did I not beat up on my little brother enough, or did I not (yet) develop enough vices to warrant a visit by Moroni, or Gabriel, or Michael, or the like?

There you go. The start of a really, really great article for you.

And are we going to lose these frames pretty soon?

Sounds like the start of a really great article from you, Mark. Now don't disappoint me. I sent you out into the world with no memory and no clothes for a reason. (Heh heh.)

Oh, and hey -- how do you like the new frameless digs?

Oh, and lest I forget, still love your site, 'specially all the love notes from equally lost souls.

Thanks! (Lost souls are the only kind there are, you know. Shh. Don't tell the Mormons.)

I guess what the Prophet Joseph said about how once you leave neutral ground, you leave it forever. Either you support the gospel or you try to destroy it. You webpage is a fulfillment of prophecy. So be it. Good luck to you!

Oh, please. Enough people have written in to these pages saying they left the Church and never looked back to blow that "prophecy" right out of the water.

This is just a quickie. I've been studying the Mormon religion intensely for a while now. I am formerly one myself but was too young at the time to really know much about it. So much of the information I find is extremely controversial and a lot is biased, too. I really need something that is neutral, but that just might be impossible. My point is I am thanking you for your site about Mormonism and especially for your humor. It makes it so much more easy to digest and still get the point across. It's also a relief to read something not so full of mind-numbing statistics or facts, but still very factual (make sense?).

Makes sense to me. Thanks for the compliment!

No man knows my pancreas either, thank you very much! Your "First Vision" fabrication while-u-wait is the best, particularly where the body part is used. When the Angel Macaroni (or whoever) reached up and grabbed old Joe by the ass, I fell off my chair. I went back several times to name new body parts, most of which my "fine mormon up- bringing" prevents me from sharing in mixed company.

I am recovering from mormonism. I am also an adult child who suffered from mental, emotional, sexual, and physical abuse, so my shrink says. And the perpetrator of these abuses? You guessed it. My high priest father. He is a racist womenizer that supports the militia movement. (yes, he thinks the OK City bombing was justified!) And he's praciticing mormonism in a ward near you! Yes, I got up the guts to report him to my bishop, but it was swept under the rug. After all, I'm a woman, second class from the start in the church's eyes. I'm inactive, been divorced, and didn't have my kids baptized. And my dad is a *priesthood holder* and a member in good standing, so why listen to me? Anyway, where one gets reported, there are four or five that don't, so please, active members, keep an eye on your kids!

Mormons are pretty darn funny in the way they percieve a person leaving the church. The church leaver either a) had a falling-out with another church member, or b) wanted to sin or had already sinned. I'd love to answer to these myths for anyone wondering about why I left, as if that's not already perfectly clear! Yeah, I had a falling-out with a member. Actually it was most of the members! I was of course different, and the mormons couldn't handle that. I don't see "thou shalt not own a motorcycle" in the ten commandments. I didn't go to BYU. I didn't go to school for music, elementary education, or home ec. I didn't get married at 19 either. I went to electronic tech school, bought a motorcycle, got a job, married a non-member, and put my kids in daycare while I worked. Therefore, I was a Relief Sociaty out cast. Of course the things my dad did pushed me further away from the church. In answer to the b) part, my sins are between me and God, and none of anyone else's business. I was sick and tired of the people of the ward poking their nose into my plan for salvation, when they had some improving of their own to work on, if they asked me.

Ah yes, you detect a lot of hate and bitterness. I am working on that. I have hedged around with statements like "If dad wasn't a member, none of this would have happened to me" and "I don't think membership would have made any difference, he would have been the same" and "I'm glad dad was in the church, or things could have been a lot worse". It has been extremely difficult to separate what part was due to the church, and what was just the fact that dad is a very sick individual. The church could have maybe helped him if they could admit that his behavior was socially unacceptable. I will blame the church for that always!

Another common myth about people who leave the church is that they are unhappy, can't hold down a job, and are social misfits. I'd like to answer this also. Through therapy sessions for years and years, I am getting better every day. I have a wonderful husband who understands what I'm going through and what I need. He is honest, caring, tolerant, loving and sharing, and he's NOT a member of the church. I have two beautiful daughters who are growing up outside of the church. They will never be ridiculed for the path they take, whether it be a career or marriage or both. I have a pretty good job. I don't make a lot of money, but there's food on the table and a roof over our heads, and a little extra money for fun. I have love and security from friends and family. And most importantly, I have hope for the future. I have lots of plans of what I want to do with my life, with no boundries or strict rules.

This is in contrast with what I had as a mormon. I had clinical depression, an eating disorder, a suicidal tendancy, an abusive husband, parents that couldn't tell the truth to save their lives, no friends(remember I was an outcast), nervous attacks and breakdowns, and general unhappiness. Gee! Which would you pick?

Anyway, thanks Bill for letting me speak my mind. I, like you, survived with my humor and love for humanity intact. I'd be funny-farm fodder if I wasn't able to laugh! Unfortunately, three of my four siblings didn't survive. My sister is a alcoholic and drug addict. My brother has five kids with three different women, some he married, some he didn't, and now he won't get a job because of all the child support he would have to pay. My other brother's wife left him when she found out he was fooling around with a 14-year-old baby sitter. Between the five of us, there have been six divorces. Pretty bad odds for a fine mormon family!

I love your stories. I loved reading "Voices from the Dust" and "Terror on Flight 789". I look forward to more "Road to Apostacy".

Please excuse my poor spelling and grammar. Tech, remember? Not a SF writer!

There is much much more to this story. I have submitted it to Eric K. but it hasn't been published yet.

Although I would love to expose my parents and the crap they pull, I love my husband and daughters very much and would like to protect them from the church. The place where I work is crawling with mormons. My daughter's teacher wears a CTR ring, and took her daughter to Utah to college. Guess what she is? I would rather not subject my family to any more crap than we have taken already. Hey! You need to add CTR to your list of terms!

Well, I better go now. Best wishes to you and your %@&@^*!! (she's beautiful!).

Stories like yours enrage me. The Church makes a lot of noise about opposing child and spousal abuse, but when you get right down to it, many of the leaders would rather staple flypaper to their faces than admit that fellow priesthood holders they've known for years could possibly be brutal sons-of-bitches behind closed doors. I'm glad you've gotten out, and I hope you keep on getting better.

I am very sorry for you. It is truely a sad sad situation that you are in. You're not sure what you think or believe in. I was reading your definitions and couldn't quite figure out where you were coming from. Hmmmm. Kind of a wishy-washy aren't you?

Well, someday, you need to make up your mind. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your comments on Mormonism. I doubt is anybody who has read them knows what you are trying to accomplish. It's that confusing. I think you are just as confused.

Instead of trying to convince other people of something you aren't even sure of, figure out what you believe first. Only people who love you care what you think, anyway. You probably have lots of people who do love you and want the best for you. Talk to them and then talk to God and get yourself out of the state of frustration you are obviously in.

Good luck and God bless you in your journey.

Out of all the hundreds of people who have written to me, you're one of the few who can't seem to figure out where I'm coming from. Hmmmm. Kind of an idiot, aren't you? Here's a hint -- try Reading Comprehension 101 at your local kindergarten community college.

I love your Mormon pages. As a non-member who has studied Mormonism intensively for several years, the one thing hard to grasp fully is the culture. Your writings help. I have known quite a few missionaries, not because I have tried to convert them (but that is another story), and I remain amazed that intelligent people can remain in the Mormon faith. One did tell me he just decided not to ask the questions which knowing me had brougt to his mind. This missionary's companion commented that the most interesting thing about getting to know me (a Protestant minister) was discovering that what the LDS leaders had taught about us was wrong (I guess I just don't act much like a hireling of Satan). The obvious question is what else that is taught is wrong? Though I thought the leaders could never be wrong. In your definitions, I think you ought to include APOSTATE MISSIONARY and APOSTATE. As a minister, I found the first diescussions quite interesting, especially as the similarities between Mormonism and Protestant beliefs are played up, but the discussion of the apostasy through me for a loop. (By the way, I, like joseph Smith for a time am a United Methodist.) At the end of the section, the elder teaching it said, "Well, what do you think?" "What do I think?" I repeated, buying some time to decide if I really understood what he had just said. "Yes, do you agree?" "Wait a minute, Elder. Let me make sure I understand. Are you asking me if I agree the entire Christian church has fallen into apostasy? Are you asking me if agree the church of which I am a minister teaches apostasy? In other words, are you asking me if I agree that I am an APOSTATE?" Obviously the elder, fairly new in the field, had never thought about what he taught. "That's not what I asked," he said, "Is it, Elder C.?" looking at his companion for support. His companion, who by now had zipped his sticks shut and was ready half out of his chair ready to bolt for the door, answered, "That's exactly what you asked him, Elder." "Ok, then, do you agree?" Elder B. said. "Well elder," I carefully replied, "I guess I don't agree." "But, dude, I just explained it to you." "I'm sorry, elder, but I don't agree with any of it." His companion cut off his gurgled protests, and when they discovered that I wasn't going to become violent, continued on with the discussion. At the end, Elder C. said that the next duscussion should really throw me. I asked why, and he answered. because we discuss baptism for the dead. I floored him when I said I already knew it was in the Bible and quoted the chapter and verse. I later came to learn that the entire mission quickly knew that these elders were teaching a minister, and, after this discussion I was known, fondly or otherwise, as THE APOSTATE. The mission president was a little uncomfortable when, after we had become friends, I told him this, but I said as long as it wasn't intended to hurt, I did'nt mind what the elders called me, though I knew by the LDS definition, I was not an apostate.

What are you looking for -- sympathy? I think you and those missionaries are equally full of beans.

Great job on the pre-release beta test version of your site. Format is attractive and easily navigable, and the content is as timeless as ever. I see you even incorporated some submissions I once suggested to your "Speaking in Tongues" section.

P.S., See "Eight Years a Saint" (under construction)

Thanks, Tom! Glad you like it!

Your new website is well-conceived and tastefully (i.e., minimistically) designed. I tried most of the links and got a couple of "fatal error" messages, but I think that's a problem on my end, because the links always work the second time. I guess I don't know what I'm doing with RealAudio, because I tried to play the complete "Wenatchee Rap" and couldn't get it to work (when I tried to "open" it, like I would a .wav file, all I got was one line of text on the screen and no audio).

I read three of your "Daedalus" essays--did you ever think about applying as a columnist for a newspaper?

Sounds like the problem is that you don't have a RealAudio player installed on your computer -- either that, or you do have it installed and your browser just doesn't know it. There is a section of my help page devoted to just this problem, so boogie on over there for the lowdown.

As for the newspaper columnist thing, I've thought about it but never really knew what to do about it. My friend Bob has had a few weekly columns in his day, though. Maybe I'll ask him.

Bill... Mi complimentias on the new design, man! Very nice work... Framey, but nice... I stand (sit, actually, I'm such a lazy-assed browser) in awe... do you accept students? :)

(BTW, being an apostate Mormon myself, I read your terrorist story with glee and a strange sense of foreboding... Never have I spent that much time reading ANYTHING on the net, but this story, its subject and its style and delivery, had me glued to the edge of my seat (and only occasionally tearing my eyes away from the monitor long enough to make sure Bishop Belec wasn't sneaking up on me with yet another "we want you back" sermon for my listening enjoyment...)) I just thought I'd let you know, I grok your writing style in a big way... Keep it up!

(PS... You were bookmarked... In case you felt the cosmic twinge, it wasn't a voodoo doll, nor was it a phantasmal fly, it was me and my unstoppable bookmark... I promise not to stick you between the pages of cheasy paperbacks, at least...)

I do indeed accept students, Anonymous-san. You can start by fixing up these pages for me. Bold on . . . bold off. Bold on . . . bold off. Bold on . . . bold off . . .

Welcome back! It's sure nice to see your page active again. Perhaps now we can get answers to those burning questions such as "Why do Mormon temples need lightning rods?" or "If the second coming is nearly upon us, why are Mormons building new temples?"

Whom else could we ask questions like this?

As always, I wish to hide my identity from the faithful so to avoid having a flock of sea gulls sent to mark my car.

Well, you could always ask your bishop . . . but my answers will be a lot more entertaining. (And I won't ask for the grungy details of your sex life either!)

I like your new web page, Views from the Left, and thanks for updating Voices from the Dust. As I continue to read Voices, I keep experiencing the same emotions over and over. Anger and empathy probably being the two most often felt. Anger at those who obviously have no compassion for a person who is only sharing his life experiences. Empathy for those who carry the emotional scars from time spent in Mormon chains. I don't have a computer at home and only have small time at work to read your web pages but I thank, whoever, for the day I discovered them. I hope my continued reading doesn't get me fired as we have been told to only use the internet for work related things. But the relief I have found in reading the stories of others, who share my own feelings about the LDS church is worth the risk.

I E-mailed you once before and have no clue if you even received it. Maybe you will not receive this one either but I wanted to write one more time and share some of my own experiences with LDS. I joined the church when I was 23 because the girl I had chosen to fall in love with would have me no other way. Although at the time I convinced myself I did it because I had a testimony. Our first marriage ceremony was at the local chapel because I was newly baptized and was not allowed to go to the Temple. It seems new converts have to wait a year. For what reasons I will never know. My parents who did not like my spouse and did not like me joining the church to begin with, came to the ceremony 5 minutes before it was to begin and left immediately afterward. They did not attend the reception. This was in June, my father did not start speaking to me again until Christmas of that year. My father and I worked in the same company, rode in the same car pool, and worked right down the hall from each other. It was very awkward.

I do not want to write a book here, although I could, but let me back up for just a second. The 2½ years before I joined the LDS Church I had the missionary discussions 3 times and after the third time I finally joined the Church because it became apparent to me that my spouse would never marry me until I did. It took me 10 years, a divorce, and a remarriage to the same woman to finally admit the truth to myself though!!!!!

Many things have led me down my road to apostasy. My first big shock that began my disbelief, or the realty of what I knew all along, was the year after my civil marriage and my first encounter with the House of the Lord, that is, the Temple. To coin a phrase from Diana, IT WAS NOT WHAT I EXPECTED, IT WAS WEIRD.

The next big shock was when I discovered that Mormons were not perfect. Laugh if you will but even though I had some problems with doctrine before I entered the waters of baptism one of the reasons I doubted my doubt was because LDS people seemed so perfect. Compared to my upbringing in a catholic family, my spouse and her family glowed with love for each other and their close relationship with each other and those at church was something I had never experienced.

The next brick in the wall was reading the book "The Mormon Murders." Reading this book I guess you could say was the straw that broke the camels back. I will never be able look at the present prophet of the Church without remembering his role in this tragic story. How can a church professing to be the true church of Christ call a man to the head position, claim that God told them to, who was involved in such goings on?

The next two incidents I will mention here would be considered by dyed in the wool Mormons as strictly the failings of human beings. But again I have to ask, if this is the true church why would the lord call such men to positions of power within his kingdom. Both incidents involved the spouses of two of my wife's sisters. The first began one night as I and, for the sake of anonymity, my spouse Sally were sleeping. At 10:30 we hear a loud banging on the door. I get up look through the peep hole and see my sister in law, Ann, standing there crying hysterically. After opening the door and attempting to calm her down I got the story out of her. Seems her and her spouse Fred got into a fight. During the scuffle she ended up with bruises up and down both arms, he claimed he was only trying to restrain her and that if she had not struggled no marks would have been on her. As she left their upstairs bedroom he tried to push her down the stairs, I am not sure what he was trying to do here. Sally asked her if she wanted to call the police, she said she did not know. She ended up calling our Bishop. He asked her the same question, eventually she did call the police and had Fred arrested. Two weeks later Fred's out of jail, him and Ann are happily married once again, and Sally and I are in the Bishop's office being told by him that we should have kept our noses out of Fred and Ann's personal life. That none of this affair would have occurred if we had just minded our business.

Now let me get this straight, a human being knocks on my door at 10:30 PM crying hysterically, with bruises up and Down both arms and I am supposed to say "Sorry I cannot become involved."

Sally's other sister Lori and her spouse Tom met and were married in Hawaii. A year later Lori got pregnant and when it got close to delivery Tom asked her if she would like her mom to fly out to help her. Lori said no I would like Sally to come and stay with us. An argument ensued and Tom's dislike and eventual hatred of Sally began. As the years passed Tom did all he could to keep Sally and Lori apart and never hid his feelings about Sally. About 3 years ago Sally came to me and asked if I would be willing to meet with Lori, Tom, and their Bishop. I asked why. She said to try to work out these feelings of animosity Tom had for her. I reluctantly agreed. We drove the 4 hours to their town the night before and stayed in a hotel. The next morning we all got together with their Bishop. The outcome was exactly as I expected, nothing. Tom sat right in his Bishops presence and said, "I hate Sally always have and always will." If she and Lori want to visit when we go to their folks I guess I can live with it. What did the Bishop do? He told Sally, you have done all you could you held out the Olive branch so to speak and Tom will not accept it. Did Tom get called to repentance, no, why because Tom was at that time the Elders Quorum President. For the first time in that ward's history they were getting 100% home teaching. Inactive Elders were coming back into the fold and Tom was the Bishops favorite Elder. Of course the Bishop wasn't going to chastise his best member.

I should mention here in all fairness that Tom did not care for me either. When we were in the same house for family gatherings he would not even acknowledge a hello or offer a hand in mock friendship. Did I care? At first yes but after a couple years, no. Why do I mention this? So that people can see that I just might be biased against old Tom.

Anyway I left many personal feelings and observations out of both these stories and tried to state just the facts so that my apparent bitterness would not enter in. I am sure I failed. Moving along though, I would just like to state for the record that I do not mention any doctrinal reasons for my disbelief. First because they alone could fill a library, slight exaggeration, and secondly because whenever you mention doctrinal holes, or black and white proof that the Book of Mormon is pure fiction a hard core Mormon will just give you their standard response of, you guessed it, PRAY, STUDY, PONDER, READ THE SCRIPTURES, PRAY, STUDY, PONDER............. I think you get the point.

Well, I want to wrap this up and I am not sure how. I was hoping after all this that I would feel better, I do not. I guess my one great hope is that all those who are struggling to break from the Mormon Church will be successful. I truly mourn for those I have grown to love who will never be able to see the light.

Lastly I regret that I have only one life to live and that I will live that life in the chains of Mormonism. As you have mentioned to so many who have written you, leaving the church when you have a spouse and kids who believe is practically impossible. When I left the Catholic church I didn't have home teachers who tried to talk me out of it, I didn't have to write any letters, no one made life hard on my family who still believed, and the Priest didn't come to my house to warn me of the dire consequences of my actions. In other words I did not need an act of congress to walk away from my faith. From what I have been told only cults make it that difficult for its membership to leave.

Well Bill if you read all this without falling asleep your probably wondering why I remarried the same women. I can only say at the time I still had my head up my ass. I love her but she's a devout Morman, I'm not, she knows this now and it's a constant source of contention for us. I told her when our youngest turns 18 and leaves home I won't step foot in the Church again. He is 2. If there is a Hell then I am living in it. Because I love my children I agreed to go to church till they were all raised, if only she knew how hard it is for me to drag myself out of bed each Sunday. Well life's a bitch and then we die, whatever. Enough crying and whining.

Thanks for being considerate enough to share your life story with those of us who can truly benefit from it. In the words of Spocks brother Sybock, "Share your pain and draw strength from the sharing."

Thanks for your moving letter, brother. I'm really sorry to hear what you've gone through and what you're still enduring. I can only hope things get better for you.

The other day I followed a link to your page and have spent a few days reading your stories. I enjoyed your writing and wanted to thank you for putting your stuff up on the web. It's weird to get such a personal account of some portions of a stranger's life, while knowing nothing about the other portions. I still haven't seen (or perhaps you don't have it on the web) the actual reasons you left the church. It seems to me, your "airplane" experience could have actually made some people stronger in the church. I think it's pretty incredible when someone who has gone through the brainwashing process of missionary work actually manages to recover their mind. I hope you finish your apostasy story.

I had to send you an email after seeing some parallels between your experiences and mine. The rest of this email inflicts some of my personal experiences on you as thanks for your site. If you have no interest stop reading here.

I'm about a half-year younger than you, born and raised Mormon in California, with six brothers and a sister. My B.S. is in Computer Science also. Currently I'm agnostic and living with my girlfriend. I'm a software engineer, not a writer (obviously), but have made some interactive fiction computer games (silly and/or pornographic) just to remind myself that I can't write.

I was called to a mission in Argentina. I went through the longer, foreign language training at the MTC but was sent home on Christmas eve, just a few days before my flight to South America was to leave. Seems the MTC's strongest effect on me was to convince me to confess some serious past sins I'd failed to confess before leaving on my mission. I had decided I needed to enter my mission with a clean conscience. They decided I needed to go home and ponder and pray about my sins for some undetermined period of time until they decided I was forgiven and could come back to the MTC. (Note that I wasn't a drug dealer or anything, my sins weren't outrageous or even illegal).

For nearly a year I was treated like human refuse in a sewage treatment plant (with an emphasis on refuse). I was taken to confess my sins in detail to every church leader from the remote and heartless geezers just below President Benson at the Church office buildings in Salt Lake City all the way down to my ward's bishop in California. The first few months were an endless parade of traumatizing experiences, including the first day home (or "The Christmas Morning of Shame") and having to face my ward only a few weeks after my farewell party. Even a simple 3 minute talk I was supposed to give in our ward's sacrament meeting was too much for my strained emotions. Sitting on the stand in front of a hundred people that knew I was sent home for unknown reasons, my mind literally collapsed and I was unable to speak one word on the simple topic I was given. I couldn't speak, so I just walked off the stand and sat numbly in the pews for the rest of the meeting.

Within a year (time flies when you're having fun) I received a letter saying that I had been forgiven and I could go back on my mission. The letter was actually signed by the highest of the high, President Benson himself as well as his left and right hand mucky-mucks (I don't care, nor can I remember who they were, or what position they held). I guess when God chatted with Prophet Benson about how I was finally "clean and whole" again, he forgot to mention that I'd been waiting around so long, I'd begun losing my faith in God, started recovering some shred of self respect on my own, and was probably fucking my non-christian girlfriend even as the letter was being signed several states away.

As I'm sure you know, extracting oneself from the life of church, family, friends, culture, habits, etc., that comprises Mormonism is an extremely long and painful process, but the further I get out, the happier I get--I wouldn't go near that masochistic insanity again. I don't need any documentation or other evidence that the Mormon Church is flawed. To me it's clear that Christianity in general has been and still is nothing but a twisted jumble of hate, intolerance, pain, fear, humiliation, prejudice, war, murder, horror and deception. I pity all the people who are blind, misguided or foolish enough to be Christians.

You know, I worked it out once -- if there are 50,000 missionaries out now, then 25,000 or so go out every year, and if the prophet spends 300 days out of the year signing mission calls, he has to do over 80 every day. And that's not even counting all the time he has to spend talking each one over with God. It's a wonder he has time for anything else. Like buying forged historical documents with tithing funds.

Welcome Back Bill. I'm assuming that you have fell into a pot of gravy, or something, so you aren't having to devote so much time to working for the almighty dollar and can now spend your time on things that really matter, like flattering your loyal following with all manner of trivialities. Cool Shit!

I was pleasantly surprised to see that even during your brief respite from the site, the loyal opposition was diligent in feeding you material, especially that schmuck, Mr. Ivie. (I'd call him "Brother", but I'm an only child, and I'm pretty sure my "Heavenly" Mother" died at birth.)

Umm, by the way, get your ass in gear and finish your "Road to Apostasy" epic. I'm still waiting for you to have sex . . . I'm ASSUMING something there, now, aren't I.

Viz a viz "loyal followers" - You oughta come out to San Diego. We get some real cool cult-types out here. You could probably make some bucks. But I want 10 percent off the top.

Again, welcome back. And don't waste too much fucking time trying to make a living . . . hey, what's really important?

It's US!

Gravy? Well, I've fallen into a little Stove Top Stuffing, maybe, but that doesn't mean I'm working any less. In fact, I'm working more -- but the strange thing is, I always seem to accomplish more when I have a lot to do at work. Go figure.

And never fear -- the sex is coming. Watch for it around Installment Twenty.

Great page! :) But I missed something: Please add a Zip-file of the entire site! Think of my telephone bill!

Oh, right, so anyone out there could download my site and install it on his or her own Web server. Sorry, I don't think so. But thanks for playing.

I have just recently begun to write and I'm having trouble finding information on how to do the chapters in my book for the manuscript.Could you please tell me how to do the chapters in the manuscript?Thank you.

You see a lot more variation in novel manuscripts than you do in shorter manuscripts, but it's generally a good idea to start every chapter on a new page and to skip down several lines from the top of the page before typing the chapter number and/or title. Hope this helps.

Oh, and you might keep an even more basic element of manuscript formatting in mind -- putting two spaces after the punctuation at the end of every sentence.

You've done a great job remodeling your web page. Simplifying the color scheme has made it load a lot faster. I first encountered your page last December when I read your bomb threat story. As an almost former Mormon (haven't quite got my name taken off the records yet), I'll keep coming back for your insight and humor. I know you're busy, but I'm still curious about some of the details that remain to be told in your "Road to Apostasy." I'm looking forward to the next section, your first Provo entry.

Keep up the good work.

Simplifying the color scheme (and related interface elements) also has the benefit of making it simpler for me to update my site -- which means you should be seeing "Apostasy" installments with greater frequency. (Of course, I could write a new installment every three months and that would still be greater frequency . . .)

I am an active "Mormon" and have been for 16 years. I have found great comfort in the Church Of JESUS CHRIST Of Latter Day Saints. When I became severely depressed a year ago, the church officails suggested I seek counsling to bring me out of it. I have had my questions about the church, but I have always found that God has provided a way for me to find the awnsers. Please Email me if you would like me to further explain my experiences.

No, thanks -- it would only depress me. James Morrow argues in his excellent novel Blameless in Abaddon -- and I agree -- that people with afflictions who persist in defending God suffer from the same disorder that causes abused wives to defend their husbands.

Hi there! Such a relief to read other suckers' stories! Left the "it's-the-only-way"-church years ago, but have never before read about or heard from other apostates. Still wonder how I had the strength anyway, being all alone about my decision.

I never thought about that, god being an alien from another planet... funny thought. Never went to temple, o my gosh, what rubbish it is! Found the ceremonies on the net a couple of days ago. Guess I didn't miss anything at all.

If there is a God, one and only, how he must be laughing his heart out, seeing the shit some people produce, and some go right on and swallow it. I hope he forgives us THAT.

By the way, aren't you ever going to finish your own story?

And finally, thanks ever so. Have a happy life!

Personally, I think that God, if he/she/it exists looks down on organized religion and starts throwing up. Either that or -- again, as James Morrow argues -- God suffers from a bipolar disorder. After all, he created both guns and roses.

My compliments on your manuscript format site. It is very well written in a language that anyone can understand and includes all the basics with a touch more.

There is a young writer whom is just starting out that I have come to know on the internet. I sent him the URL to your site for his perusal and for him to learn.

Even though I know manuscript form, I found it very informative and printed out a copy to glance over every once in while.

Thank you for your informative site. It is just fantastic!

You're very welcome.

The section for submitting a short story was very useful to me. I have seen the information before, but never put in such a concise and friendly manner. Thank you.

Well, Damon Knight has done it even more concisely, but thanks for the compliment nonetheless!

I am a member of the church and have to ask you this question. Why, in this page, do you tell so many lies about the church? Can you answer this for me?

Why, in this letter, are you such a fuckhead? Can you answer this for me? If you're going to call me a liar, you'd better back up your accusation with some examples, asshole.

I am a Latter Day Saint, and I must say I believe you have misinterpreted LDS doctrine. For instance your comment "Well, sure that's a lot of suffering, and a lot of atonement. But when the reward is so great, so much more infinite than the suffering (after all, the 'infinite' atonement ended when Jesus died), then how much of a sacrifice was it, really?" You are missing the whole point. Jesus died for us so that we could be saved. You say that it is not really suffering for Jesus when their is such a grate reword at the end. But then doesn't it follow that the suffering we face is not really suffering when we too receive a grate reword at the end? I urge you to think about this as I can tell you with absolute faith that God is our Heavenly Father and he loves us deeply. And just think for a moment that maybe it hurts him to see us suffering, that maybe he wishes he didn�t have to see us go through this, that maybe he would love to interfere and help us. However he must allow as to do this alone. Do we interfere in our children's lives when we see them making mistakes. No! All we can do is be there to help them and comfort them when they come to us after they realised the mistakes they have made. Gods plan is the only plan that would allow us to get a physical body whilst retaining our free agency, which Lucifer would have taken away. Would you like to go through live without having a choice in what you do? I think not. Please think on these things and contact me if you would like to talk on anything I have said

You don't interfere in your children's lives when you see them making mistakes? You wait for them to come to you when they realize they've erred? Or do you just stand by waiting to rush them to the hospital after they've climbed onto that hot stove as you watched? Sorry, but your arguments don't convince me.

By the way, this is a "grate reword": a barred frame for cooking over a fire. Get it??? (Oh, why do I even bother?)

Hi Bill!!! I was scanning the [newspaper name deleted], my wannabe competition newspaper, and I saw an article on Mormon web sites and lo and behold, there was the name of that genius editor I remember from high school. How are ya? Sounds like, from your website, you've really got some opinions about your mission. I served one too. Went to Florida and taught the Spanish people. I loved it and the people I taught. Honestly, best experience of my life. I couldn't imagine trying to handle the experiences of life now without the testimony in Heavenly Father that my mission solidified.

Sure was fun to see your name in the paper - imagine - newspaper articles on you instead of written by you. I still write newspaper articles. I'm the editor of the paper in the thriving metropolis of [town name deleted]. Thriving there are small town mayors with big egos and puny mentalities. Had my fill of pueblo politics, that's for sure. Well, I've since married, have a 16-year-old daughter and 14-year-old son. You could call me Mrs. Old McDonald. We have geese, horses, chickens, pigs and a dog and a cat. I'm the editor of the paper and my husband has been the public works director for the city - hence my experience and subsequent fill of small town politics.

Send me back a message if you get this message. C/ya. [author name deleted] - remember, your junior prom date, 1985?

I remember, yes -- I remember I was an asshole to you afterward, and I apologize for that. It's good to hear from you; I'll try to drop you a note soon. But one word of advice -- if you really want to remain anonymous, then don't fill your public correspondence with so many identifying details. ;>

I would like to thank you for your Mormon pages. My husband and I found them just a day after realizing that the LDS church was not for us. We had been investigators for about two months and were nearing baptism when I was told about all of the "secrets" that I wasn't allowed to know yet. As the fate of that curious cat dictates, I searchd for and found tons of expositive info on the web, and walked away feeling cheated. I was feeling like a child who was just told there is no such thing as Santa.

Wanting to know more about others' disenchantment with the church, I found your page. My husband and I read your stories outloud to each other for hours and couldn't get enough. You are a very talented story teller and got us hooked. We haven't spent quality time like that together in awhile. Ironiclly, our missionaries asked us to read the Book of Mormon together, but we couldn't get into it. I'd have to say to all those critics of your page, that you have definately been a creative, positive force in at least OUR LDS experience. Thank you, and finish The Road... we're waiting!!

A story to warm my crusty old heart! Congratulations on your near miss, and best of luck to you.

I like the site in general. I especially liked the Mormon pages.

Yeah, I'll bet. And admiration for me must have been the reason you tried to sneak the HTML code for a banner ad to your Star Wars fan site past me in your little message. What, you thought I was so stupid I wouldn't notice?

I send you my warmest greetings! I was very impressed with the quality of information on your pages! I found it to the point and it answered all the questions I had. I am finding it very useful. I thank you!

I thank you for thanking me. And thanks again!

I'm just a novice with a children's book re polar bears...monologue and facts revealed through his mind. What you said was quite fun and probably quite helpful. Guess I'll try submitting it and getting the numerous rejections that everyone is supposed to receive. Anyway, thanks for the spirited encouragement and notes re margins, typing, etc. Hope to visit your site again.

Just don't get discouraged and give up. I collected over a hundred rejection slips before I made my first sale. Best of luck.

religion is a _personal_ matter.

So is your choice of feminine hygiene products, but that doesn't make it wrong for their manufacturers to advertise. See, if you're trying to tell me that it's wrong for me to talk about why I don't like the Mormon Church, then by your own lights it's just as wrong for Mormons to talk about why they do. So unless you'd advocate calling the missionaries home, you have to let those of us on the other side have our say -- and you shouldn't whine about it.

I found your website very amusing and entertaining. It's one of my favorite sites on the net. I also took some time to check out your &@+!f&=# site and %@&@^*!!'s site (That concentration game is a lot of fun!). I feel like I can really relate to you a lot. I've been active in the church my whole life, but in recent years I haven't been what you'd call "orthodox". I've had a couple of doubts and vices here and there. My own long hair and Metallica-moustache do tend to set me apart from Peter Priesthood. I've never suffered any repercussions for it, however. I have also spent a lifetime as a sci-fi fan and writer. From 1988-90 I served in the Germany Frankfurt Mission (a tough one). I've got to admit I hated it, but I stuck it out. As I was reading about your adventures, something strange happened. I actually began to wax nostalgic on those days of the black name tag.

I guess that brings me to the thing I've been the most curious about. Some Latter-Day Saints discover that the church just isn't their dance. Okay, whatever. It happens. But why doesn't anybody just say "no" and walk away quietly. I should think these folks would want to celebrate their newfound "freedom" by exploring some of the former taboos. Try some coffee. Go waterskiing on the Sabbath. Treat yourself to an orgasm or two, whatever turns your crank. But instead they'd rather devote hours, days, weeks of their lives to stomping the church into the ground. Why? Does the world really need to know what goes on in the temples? Are we really some great social evil that needs to be exposed? I don't mean to compare you to those dorks that try to pass themselves off as the Salman Rushdie of Utah. I know you're different. But come on, dude. Do you really believe one of the largest churches in the world would change its priesthood policy because ONE university wouldn't play football with us? One more note about myself: I'm not an overtly spiritual person. I don't rush up to the pulpit every fast and testimony meeting, and I lack the ability to cry on command. Yet, what few spiritual highs I've gotten felt nothing like the highs I get from my favorite movies, music, or even martial arts. They are as different as day and night.

Despite my comments, I must add my voice to those lamenting your decision not to finish "The Road to Apostasy". I found it very touching. Even if you don't do a single thing more on your site, couldn't you just finish that story? Please? Not that I'm eager to hear the church get slammed some more (hey, I can take it), but it would answer so many questions. It feels weird to know so much about someone I've never met, but why stop now?

I know you get a lot of mail, but could you please answer mine? I am dying to know your thoughts on my thoughts. I have a nagging fear that your only reply will be an invitation to "fuck off" or get off my high horse. I hope that will not be the case, as I don't feel I even own a high horse. Despite my earlier rantings, I'm want to come to you as a friend. I believe that if we met in real life, we would really hit it off. Although, as I've stated before, I'm no spiritual giant, I feel very inspired to reach out to you. I'm not going to argue doctrine or try to win you back to "the fold". What would be the point, right? It's just that I identify with you so much. It seems our lives followed the same road until we hit a fork somewhere (yet our roads still merge together in a few places). I think a friendship would be mutually beneficial. Please contact me (although if you don't write before May 28th, you'll have to wait until September for me to reply).

Wow, where to begin? Let's start with the football question. One of the basic Mormon beliefs is that the greatest effects can be produced by the smallest causes; e.g., a 14-year-old boy beginning the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Stanford's refusal to play sports against BYU kicked off a discrimination furor that ultimately threatened the Church's status as a tax-free entity -- a small cause with a potentially far-reaching effect. I believe the Church extended the priesthood to blacks to head off this situation, and so, yes, ultimately I believe that one university's refusal to play with BYU caused a huge policy change. It's not such an absurd premise.

Does the world really need to know what goes on in Mormon temples? I believe that it does. I don't think anyone can make a truly informed assessment of whether or not they should join the Church without as much information as possible at his or her disposal. I sure as shit wish I'd known beforehand that I was going to be asked to swear blood oaths in the temple. That would have given me severe pause.

Of course, these beliefs don't preclude the possibility of friendship -- you've approached this invitation with sincerity and intelligence and thoughtfulness, quite unlike the woman I told to fuck off. Write to me again and bug me if you haven't heard from me by September.

I wrote to the auther privetly t congradulate him on his escape from mormonisim and wish him many exciting years of freedom and adventure. but decided to take a chance on getting my piece publised on the page as well. I moved to utah in 94 I had no interest in mormons I sort of admired them for building a canal in huricane utah and surviving the desert in salt lake But as I lived here longer I became awair that I was being avoided and given dirty looks. Finaly I was practicly ran out of a sewing class at southern utah university because the mormon women did not think a man should sew. It was as if I had walked into the ladys room or somthing. I was constantly hurassed in class in a multitude of ways. Now I see mormonisim more for what it is than I already had began to suspect. A weird cult. In utah peole walk around with their nose in the air, exuding a smug glow. Bulidings are run down , wind mills are falling apart on ranches, horses shiver in frozen pastures with no protection from the cold, roads go unpaved and daingerously unmarked. The economy resembels a third world country and a nice big mormon church stands on every corner . For Shame mormons ,For shame.

Utah is not so strange in that it's a place where great wealth sits cheek-by-jowl with great poverty. Utah is strange and reprehensible in that it's a place where the myth that wealth is a sign of faithfulness to God holds powerful sway. I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences there, but yours is unfortunately not a unique situation.

I was born an East-coast Mormon, raised in the church, and even graduated from BYU -- although that experience, along with the pogroms the church began to inflict on Mormon intellectuals by the late seventies -- convinced me that Mormonism could make no place for someone of my kind. Fifteen years ago I left quietly, without much concern, and never looked back.

Odd that I could do that, when the same decision has obviously cost so many others so much. I wonder what it means.

Rather recently an event reminded me of my Mormon background. By accident I ran across a website that mentioned that a former friend of mine had become a dean or some-such at Ricks College. I sent him a congrats e-mail, and he responded warmly, telling me much about his life and his family in the interim 20 years, and asking if we couldn't stay in touch. I answered positively, describing a little of my life, noting that I was now a university history professor, and that mine was a "nineties" family -- two divorced people who had remarried, and brought their children into the relationship. I did not mention leaving the church.

I never heard from him again.

Later a mutual acquaintence told me that he had had me "checked out" and decided that pursuing an old friendship with a person who had left the church, had divorced, had married a non-Mormon, and was an historian besides, was too risky for someone in his position. I felt very sad.

In light of this experience -- and what it indicated about the church -- I decided to look into Mormonism again, to catch up on what has been happening in the last fifteen years. I find that the pogroms have become even more blatant and the agendas of church authorities like Boyd K. Packer more divisive and destructive. I find intellectuals on the run, or, more likely, eliminated or marginalized as a serious element of Mormon culture. And I find a great deal of bitterness, on the part of those who have left the church, and those who desperately defend it. That is most disturbing of all, although I think I understand the reasons, and it's certainly not my place to judge.

I am very sorry about the whole business and what it seems to have done to so many people, Mormon and not. It's a world that seems alien to me now, as though I have lost basic instincts, survival patterns, or behavioral characteristics that defined me as a part of it. My own ideals and self-definitions do not include Mormonism anymore, but instead focus on fatherhood, scholarly principle, creativity, and respect. It's strange to look back, as though I have identified a true discontinuity in my life, and I was really someone else.

I'd like to thank you (and others of all persuasions and opinions) for the opportunity to rediscover and update some the issues. It has given me pause to personally reflect, and that is valuable. I wish you all the best.

It's certainly a sad time when colleagues in a scholarly discipline are afraid to fraternize for fear of reprisal. Thanks for writing.

YOU KNOW, ITS COMMENTS LIKE YOURS THAT ACTUALLY SOLIDIFY THE VALIDITY OF THE THE TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH ON THE EARTH. YOU MAKE SO MANY GOOD POINTS, THAT IF I WAS A READER, I WOULD STOP AND TAKE A HARDER LOOK AT THE POSSIBILITY OF THE TRUTHFULNESS OF THE SO CALLED "MYTH" YOU SPEAK OF. YOU DO DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU STRENGTHEN THE POSITION OF THE CHURCH BY REITERATING THE BIBLE BY TALKING OF GOD HAVING A BODY OF FLESH A BONES (MOSES), AND THE WAR IN HEAVEN (REVELATIONS). I REST MUCH EASIER AT NIGHT AFTER PRAYING TO MY HEAVENLY FATHER KNOWING HE HAS A BODY OF FLESH AND BONES AND LOVES ME AS A FATHER CAN TRULY LOVE HIS SON. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES! I AM HERE TO TELL YOU THAT RUNNING DOWN THE SAVIOR IS SERIOUSLY BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH - ESPECIALLY YOUR SPIRITUAL HEALTH. THE CHURCH IS TRUE. THERE IS A LIVING PROPHET ON THE EARTH TODAY. THE PLAN OF SALVATION APPLIES TO YOU. GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY AND YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH. THE SAVIOR PROMISED. CHANGE YOUR WAYS, OR I'M TELLING YOU, YOUR IN FOR A BIG FALL.

P.S. HOW CAN THE CHURCH NOT BE TRUE AND BYU FOOTBALL END UP FIFTH IN THE NATION? (BA HA BA HA BA HA HAHAHAHAHAHA!)

I seem to recall that the BYU football team won a national championship back in the eighties. Does this mean the Church is less true now than it was then?

I really have enjoyed reading your Mormon Matter site, I'm 35 now, was a convert when I was 19, did the whole mission thing, Seoul Korea 85-87, temple marrage blah blah. As a convert, I have often questioned the same things as you, in much the same way. As to answers, well, I guess I'm not in much better shape than you were. I taught myself to read with Mr Burroughs' Mars series, pretty racy stuff back then. Moved on to R.A.Hienie, spose we should all follow his admonition through Lazarus Long. "There is no evidence of life after death. On the other hand, there is no evidence against it either." Soon enough, we will all KNOW one way or the other, so why worry about it. I'll read some of your SF stuff, if it's as good as the mission tale and road to apostacy, should be fun.

Gee, only close friends of Bob Heinlein got to call him "Heinie." I'm jealous.

I am a radical atheist with a incredible sense of humor!! your site was a great source of humor, thank you very much!!- I grew up in arizona and everyone was telling jew- ish jokes, and catholic jokes, baptist jokes, etc., but no mormon jokes, my whole friggin' life except- " how does a man in the mormon church become a bishop? -they make him crawl through death valley and see if he can make five tracks in the sand..."

Ah. No wonder the women at church used to get such a gleam in the eye when they predicted I'd be a bishop someday . . .

I searched a lot and never got to the conclusion (other than "Beware of God" and "my father had a bizaare approach to science fiction").

It looked like you rebelled against the mormon culture rather than the LDS Church.

Just a couple comments. You might want to consider a consistent background metaphor rather than continuous changes in wallpaper and background on every page -- it will read better and load much more quickly.

You might also want to put together a link from your First Article of Faith to a condensed story. Reading through to Kaysville and your entry into Jr. High was entertaining, but not very enlightening, other than observing the cultural artifacts.

Do you ever get to the strong counter-movements in the LDS Church that focus on the social/cultural aspects that disturbed you? Do they matter?

Just curious (you are on the "next 5" from my site and I thought I'd take a look).

A "consistent background metaphor"? God, what a ridiculous idea.

Liked the writing. No complaints or comments other than I'd like to see more.

Also liked the &@+!f&=#.com home page material. The url for the bibliography ended up refusing me entry, so I worked my way down the directories.

Don't know why that happened, but the trip was worth the effort.

Um . . . glad to hear it.

I never thought that the incident that happened in Canada had the affect it did later in your life. I thought that you continued a member of the church and that the problems were put behind you.......Mormon hater?

Excuse me, but do I know you? You're talking like you thought you already knew the ending before I even started telling the story.

i am a "starving" writer who has never actually submitted a manuscript before and really appreciates the fabulous resources found here on the web. i have looked over many sites by now and have found none that offers the kind of solid practical advice that yours does. you don't preach about what to write or how to write but just how to submit it. it is incredible nice toe able to know these things before sending anything out. thank you.

You're quite welcome.

I really enjoyed your story about the "Incident" that happened in Canada. I am from a town about 10 miles away from Nauvoo, so I am somewhat familiar with LDS missionaries. My wife thinks that missionaries are such "NICE BOYS". I am an athiest, she not shure, but with pagan leanings. Glad to hear that things worked out for you. I especially like your tolerant attitude. I would have to say that a good portion of that is due to the "Mormon Thing", as I have noticed that mormons tend to be tolorant of others. I guess so they have that chance to get them to the church and heaven and all that.

If you have not had it published, you ought to. A great piece of writing that had me hooked from start to finish.

BTW, I was 10 years military, short hair, gung ho. I got out, work for MCI, long hair/mustache, road a bicycle across the USA. Ain't change great!

Change is the best! But as Neil Peart said, "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

It seems like the primary reason that people leave the church is because of other people that they don't like. i can't understand why. i mean, the most important thing in any chrurch is God, and if you believe in Him, then you can work around the people side of things. i get sick of the people that i know that tell me that i should go to church more, but i still believe in the stuff that is taught. it's hard, but i do it. occasionally i meet a very spiritual person who is down to earth, and doesn't intoduce themself as "bill _____, a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, would you like to hear more..." I know that the Mormon church is true, and that i need to improve on a lot of things. i'm working on it.

I think I've just gotten a letter from Saturday Night Live's Middle-Aged Man: "I'm workin' on it!"

I like the honesty of your page, and the search for truth that you appear to be on. I hope that you have continue to search for truth in God, not just without Him. Satan might be successful in using the LDS church to keep you from the true God, both as a mormon and as a disallusioned mormon.

Searching for truth in God? That sounds kind of like a theosophic autopsy to me. Reminds me of two of my favorite novels, Towing Jehovah and Blameless in Abaddon by James Morrow. Check 'em out.

Bill, I feel compelled to write to you as we are somewhat kindred spirits, except I am still in the Church. I am a returned missionary with a degree in English, and a card carrying member of the Democratic party. Rush is my favorite band (Suburbs is my favorite song). I consciencely choose to live outside of the intermountain west for probably the same reasons you do. I am a writer, author of "The College Guide for Latter-day Saints":

      http://members.aol.com/legacycomm/guide1.htm

I'm also a dedicated cybernaut. I realize your swamped with Email, but I would love to strike up somewhat of a relationship. No, I'm not trying to be a Churchman (I love that term!). I respect your situation. It's very fascinating to me. I joined the Church initially for my girlfriend (now wife) and entered the MTC 13 months later. it was only there and in the field that I got really turned on to the gospel. Since coming home I've had my bouts, but have stayed pretty much on the "company man" course. Do you realize that you represent a secret side of me, of many X'er Mormons and others throughout the Church? We read you and say "well, if I ever did it, I'd do it somewhat like that...." Fascinating stuff. Oh, I live in Houston. Write me back if you get the chance. What I'd like to know a bit about is the timespan that you went through shortly after you left the Church - what was it like? It seems it would be like jumping off a sea cliff into a churning ocean - so many uncertainties. Anyway, if you got the time, you got someone here who'd love to coorespond a bit. Thanks!

I'll try to pencil you in. :)

Here's a web page I think you might like.....

      http://www.fadetoblack.com/cultkit/cult.htm

Just cuz I'm LDS doesn't mean I don't enjoy the humor of your pages nor the skill that you use to present them. Enjoy!

Hey, we all have our good points and our bad points. Thanks for the URL.

A friend who was reviewing my site (http://www.dolphin.org/greg/) pointed me to yours to get some ideas. Good site! And if you get a chance, drop by my home page and look up some of my stories.

Looks like you got some graphics from me, too. But that's okay -- I won't tell.

Just noticed that you changed the "Mormon Matter" typography at the top of the page. It looks nice. Had been meaning to say that the melting brown typography before reminded me too much of chocolate, creating a craving for them every time I loaded your page! (grin)

Your web pages as a whole is nice and is a LOT of work, not only in content, but also in artistic design.

My own site is breadcrumbs compared to yours, having barely begun (still in the starting gate)!

      http://www2.netcom.com/~kkeil/kkeil.html

Hey, man cannot live on chocolate alone. I'm sure your bread crumbs will grow into a fine fat loaf someday, and will be hot and nourishing long after my chocolate has melted away.

Great website, one of the best I've seen. I enjoy your writing, keep it coming. I'm a lifelong mormon although inacative for years, but the one thing that really chaps my ass is the Word of Wisdom. After reading early church history, I find that none of the early members or prophets for that matter payed any heed at all to it, but now it is generally regarded as the number one commandment to most mormons. In fact I know some people who regard breaking the word of wisdom on the same level as say sodomizing a donkey. I say if brother Joseph and Brigham can smoke fat cigars and drink fine wine let me at it!

I'll drink to that.

It's very unfortunate that despite the lifetime you spent as a member of the Church, you never felt the conversion power of the Holy Ghost. It's evident that you don't really know what the atonement is ... it is MUCH more than a sacrifice of a son on the cross. But what really amazes me is that you are expending so much time, thought, energy, effort, and you LIFE to the work of the adversary ... HOPELESSLY trying to convince the world of your crooked and biased views of Christ and his plan. And it is, my friend, hopeless. You will see someday..someday quite soon...that your choices have only led yourself to a hell more miserable than you ever suffered in any jail. Beware ... it is so obvious who's advocate you are playing. Satan's got a real blindfold on you. I feel sorrow for you. When you want to repent someday of this period of your life (re: Alma the Younger) it will so much harder because of all the efforts your putting into spreading your apostate views across the world. You've affected much more than just yourself, which makes repentance so much harder.

Well, farewell, and remember that once the Spirit has confirmed truth, no amount of deception disguised with humor, sarcasm, pop culture, and new-age individualistic thinking can deter spiritual knowledge. So, in other words, stop wasting your time. "No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing...the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobley, and independent until the purposes of God shall be accomplished." Whatever persecution may arise, it matters not, Christ and his Gospel will prevail. It's Satan who's got you convinced otherwise. Check yourself.

Oh, fuck off, you high-handed, self-righteous, pinheaded, peabrained scold. Maybe if God himself came down and slapped me around -- à la Alma the Younger -- I'd decide to return to the Church. But it's more likely I wouldn't. I can't respect a God who plays favorites. Why should baddies like Saul and Alma get personal wake-up calls from God, when no one else does? Why hasn't the Big Man come down and straightened out Ed Decker? Why does he permit Jerald and Sandra Tanner to continue on their merry divisive way? Hey, for that matter, why didn't he recruit Hitler when he had the chance? Can you imagine what God could have accomplished with der Führer on his team? Who did Alma and Saul have to sleep with to become God's pets?

Fantastic Mormon pages! The story of your mission is absolutely enthralling and provided an awesome immersion in the Mormon culture. I'm an interested observer of the Mormon culture, partially because I plan on moving to Utah soon (not because of the Mormons, but rather because I'm one of those godawful Edward-abbey type nature freaks.

So what did happen to Elder Finn? Have any other former missionaries followed you into apostasy? Are you yourself now an atheist, or do you still consider yourself Christian?

Once again, GREAT JOB!

He's still in the Church. No one followed me, but I know one or two who paralleled me. It's a limiting question when "atheist" and "Christian" are the only two choices; call me agnostic.

Brother Shunn! Would you believe that you were behind my first apostate act that could have stripped me of my temple recommend? My wife and I had just admitted our serious doubts about the church to each other and we sat down at the computer to find someone of a like mind. We found you and read your first four chapters of "The Road to Apostasy" together (so...do you associate or sympathize with any apostates? Nobody but them plane bombers). I e-mailed you and told you what I thought then, but since then I've come through the dark valley and have emerged intact. My wife and I passed through the seven stages of real apostasy: shock, guilt, denial, guilt, anger, guilt and finally resignation (did I miss any?) I can't say that you caused or really contributed to my apostasy, but you made the trip bearable with your candor and sense of humor.

My wife and I went out and bought gentile underwear together, and just last weekend we went to a coffee shop to have our first cup of coffee. Last week I held my wife's hand as she turned down her first calling, just before I told the elders quorum president that I really did not intend to do any home teaching and would he take our family off the home teaching list. Now I'm composing a letter to Salt Lake etc. etc. but the hardest part is now when I tell my family. I know that isn't going to go well...so wish me luck.

Just let me say that this was not an easy decision, especially since my wife is approaching her last semester at BYU before graduation. I called the honor code office and they said that any student that disaffiliates themselves with the church will be dismissed from school regardless of whether or not they have sinned. Go figure. Now what the hell are we supposed to do? It's so simple as just picking up and moving. I asked if she had it within her to hold her nose and lie for her ecclesiastical endorsement (that you need every year to go to BYU) but she said she doesn't.

And finally...I know what your feelings are about God...I'm almost there myself. I feel like there's a god, I sure hope there is, but I know that he goes way beyond the bible, or any other set of ancient tribal stories. There are many paths to the top of Mt. Fuji, said the wise man (I used to scoff at this notion while I was on my mission), I'll see you at the top.

"Tell me all your thoughts on God...'cause I'd really like to meet Her." I forget the name of the band...

I'm happy if I made your road to apostasy even a jot more pleasant. May there be many wonderful miles for you ahead.

I really liked your writing. The "Terror on Flight 789" was funny, but I think your best piece is probably "Toulemonde," although it confused me somewhat. I occasionally try to write things myself, but I always end up thinking that I wouldn't like my writing if it weren't mine. Oh well . . . maybe I'll be able to settle for less than perfection someday . . .

Dave, a wise writer once said that no story is ever truly finished -- it is merely abandoned. (That's either very profound or the mother of non sequiturs.) Keep at that writing, and best of luck.

I have gone from Mormonism to Christianity to paganism/whatever. I was raised in a very small mormon town in southeastern Idaho. One of my most memorable experiences involving "the church" was in the Logan Temple. We were there to be "baptized for the dead" and had to wait our turn while some young ladies got dipped. A very revelatory experience. I made sure I was the last one out of the dressing room so I could abuse myself in the big house. Hot stuff. I fell away some years later. I now live in a somewhat larger town in southcentral Utah. My next door neighbor is "the bishop". I don't think he will ever get used to me addressing him by his first name instead of his title. Most of my friends are mormons. They kind of hold me at arms length. I try not to bring up too many contradictions regarding their beliefs. They for the most part spend their lives secure in the knowlege that while they might be miserable for the time being while I laugh a lot and seem to enjoy life, they will have their revenge later when they are in the "celestial" and I am in the "telestial" or better yet, "outer darkness". Later dude.

You choked the chicken in the temple??? Kelly, I'm sorry, but that was just a leetle bit more than most of us wanted to know.

You called me "the Rush Limbaugh of the Anti-Mormon world." I think that is a rather elevated estimation of my significance to those who are willfully blind to the truth about Mormonism. Please note that my Book of Mormon Exposé will be moving to:

      http://www.iahushua.com/eoeic/thebook.htm

where I will include my secret Temple Name and my Member File # in my list of credentials. Mormonism, that financially powerful goliath of a whore, continues to try to psychologically harass me through the mass media. Whoever they are paying to do this is quite overpaid, as they are consummate amateurs at what they do. Deck the Quorum of the Twelve Cardinals in fine red satin and the end result would be the same. Sheol!

Shalom Aleichem.

P.S. Look for "The 17 Points of an Untrue Church," soon to come to "The Virtual Anne Frank House."

It wasn't an elevated estimation of your significance -- it was an insult. You and Limbaugh are both crackpots, end of story.

God, Bill, I just read your hiatus announcement and got real, real sad!

I feel like my friend is moving out of the neighborhood . . . umm, cyberhood.

Oh, I know the site will still be there for me, but, hell, I've memorized everything on there. It's part of my routine, you see. Come home from grad school and picking up the kid at nursery school. Turn on the computer. And while I get up my nerve to start dinner, check out Mormon Matter to see if anything is new. Any new wack jobs written in to the feedback page? Any new installments of the "Road to Apostacy?" Anything, anything, anything? It's an act of supreme optimism -- there's always the chance that there could be something new to look at at the old Shunn place. But now I know that it's over , a moment frozen in time.

Hey, I'll get over it. I think you are wise to take this positive move for your own writing career. You're taking steps down a slightly different path now . . . and I sincerely wish you a bon voyage!

But hey -- couldn't you send a postcard now and again? :)

Consider this my postcard! But, as usual, it looks as if I beat it home . . .

bill ive only just come back on line....and your deserting me....for SELFISH REASONS how positively healthy...you'll be writing self help books next!!!! goodest and bestest luck in your quest for fame and fortune and thanks for helping me along with eric from mormon insanity to my now blissful godless existance

I guess it's turned out that my Web site and I are co-dependents. Oh, well.

Just a comment on the upcomming reconstruction of I 15. Q.What's orange and sleeps 6? A.A UDOT truck.

For those of you tuning in late, UDOT is the Utah Department of Transportation. Har har.

Hello. I was very disappointed to see that you've decided to discontinue the Mormon pages, but, upon reading your explanation, I can say that I totally understand. We all have to learn to prioritize.

Still, I have to say that I regret seeing the end of what was probably the best ex-Mormon site on the net, and believe me, I've seen a lot of them. I stumbled across your site during a time when I was investigating the church for myself, and it really opened my eyes to the way things are (in spite of the fact that the Mormons I knew assured me that you were a disgruntled, excommunicated member with an axe to grind).

In spite of what you said on your Adieu page, if you ever do get inspired to finish up The Road to Apostasy, please let me know. I'm dying to find out the catalyst that sent you out the door...looking at your web site now, it's hard to believe that you were ever a devout Mormon.

At any rate, thanks for the web page. It made a difference in my life...your efforts were extremely worthwhile.

All the best of luck to you in your writing career. I'll be keeping my eyes open for your work.

Disgruntled, yes -- excommunicated, no. I left under my own power. To quote the late Elder Legrand Richards, you can tell your Mormon friends to put that in their pipes and smoke it. :>

I just tapped into your new feature in Loud Laughter "No Man Knows My Pancreas." What a hoot!!! Unfortunately, after entering all the requested information, and reading the story of Joseph Smith's first vision, the King of the Cockroaches caused a burning in my bosom (actually it was a little lower and could be the beginnings of a mild case of gonorrhea), and I got a testimony that, in fact, the One True Marijuana Company has been restored and I should be immediately immersed . . . in smoke . . . so, gotta run and keep an appointment with the guys the Company uses to "teach us all that we must do," to come to a true understanding of the vitues of hemp. (I think they used to be called pushers, but now in California we can call them Company Health Care Givers. Cool.)

Happy New Year. Keep up the good work. (Uh oh, there I go, calling evil good and good evil. Bet the Book of Mormon has something to say about that!)

As a matter of fact, 2 Nephi 15:20 does indeed address the subject: "Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Which probably condemns not only me and the Church of the Righteous Herb, but Microsoft, ConEd, and Anheuser-Busch, too.

I am glad you updated the caricature to reflect your new facial hair-style.

My motto is: "Never lie to the reader." Therefore when I shave, so does my caraicature. Have fun at work while I'm collecting unemployment!

(For those of you not in the know, Martin was my manager at Wanderlust Interactive, which laid off me and nineteen other low-seniority worthies the week of New Year's Day. Not his fault, though, so please don't flood him with outraged email.)

I just finished my own private version [of "Joseph Smith's First Vision"]. My hat is off to you. So is my shirt. Laugh? I thought I'd die. I tremble in the presence of truly twisted greatness.

Keep up the good work.

Hey, what can I say? "No Man Knows My Pancreas" wouldn't have been possible without you . . . and you . . . and you . . .

During my first year of college, at age 18, I joined the church of Jesus Christ. I am now 37, and since then I have run into more beliefs, and biases than I could count. I have always remembered that there is some truth in every point of view. I am not a "joiner" or a conformist. I had rebelled against many established and commonly accepted points of view, especially because I felt that, since the world was going to Hell in a handbasket, why should I believe that any established norms were above question? I left the ranks of Protestants, sick of the glassy-eyed, disconnected way they treated their religion as if it could have no reconciliation with any other form of knowledge. There were alot of kind people but the system tended to breed Bible worshippers and bigots.

The doctrine of the LDS church was a breath of fresh air to me. I have found it to be the most tolerant and comprehensive of all. I knew it was true as if I had known it all of my life. It became deeply personal to me. No man gave it to me. The experiences I had when I decided to ask if it was true will never be known but to God and me.

You can understand then why I tire of people who lay responsibility for all of the garbage that happens to them on their church. On any church for that matter. But especially what I call "Catholic Mormons." Those who think that the mere circumstance of their birth in Utah and subsequent adherence to societal norms of missions and Temple marriages somehow make them special. Much of what you and other "children of record" seem to miss is that life was designed by God to teach all His children. Being Mormon doesn't exempt you. On the contrary! You're like kids who grow up with the answers to the final exam and think you therefore understand the subject. That's human nature. I admit I can't imagine what it must be to grow up in Utah, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I have never found a set of principles which so simply and clearly empower an individual to make a spiritual connection with the Creator. Although many of your observations are real, most of them are artifacts of culture and humanity. You have not yet become acquainted with the gospel. If you will keep an open heart, allow yourself to someday stumble back to the place where you started -- for the first time.

Joining the Church nineteen years ago would mean that you were baptized either shortly before or shortly after the "revelation" that extended priesthood blessings to blacks, thereby defusing Stanford University's refusal to play football against B.Y.U. Oh, yes, very tolerant religion you found yourself -- especially when lucrative college sports are at issue.

And that third paragraph of yours is just a fractured mass of inconsistency. First you get on my case for blaming all my "garbage" on the Church -- which I've never done -- and then you take me to task for acting like a pious, spoiled Mormon brat. Which am I? An apostate with no sense of personal responsibility or a Utah Mormon with a hyperinflated sense of specialness? Make up your mind. I grew up more or less like a kid who'd been given the answers to the final exam, yes -- but then when I graduated, I discovered not only that my school had never been accredited, but also that it was situated on Mars instead of Earth.

And talk about kids being given the answers. What else is the Mormon temple ceremony but an elaborate cram session for that Great Final Exam at the gates of heaven? Write again when you've come down from your high horse and found a place in your heart for that ideal of tolerance you so greatly vaunt.

Hi there. I'm a non-LDS, native Californian living in SLC UT for the past 3 years.

Your Story:

This is an interesting story, at least up to chapter 14, where I must pause for the brief intermission "bedtime". I can't wait to read the rest tomorrow. It's well written, and moves along quickly. I like it. My personal revue (sought after by authors world-wide) is "Cool".

My Story (for boring/entertainment purposes only):

In my short time here, I've been exposed to a few but (by my standards of normal behavior) extreme cases of the LDS influence over the population. And I must say, without intent of insult, that from what I've seen the entire Mormon mindset scares me to death. It seems to be . . . Hitler was replaced by a hallucinogenic Disney.

I've talked with a few to several women, very nice women who were all with the church. What I've found to be interesting is that each and every one of them would consistently confront me with: "You think I'm weird, don't you?". Sometimes it's asked with this tone of voice that sounds like their own thoughts are struggling to break free of some LDS 'Vulcan Mind Meld'. I'm no psychologist, but it sounds like a full blown case of insecurity. Most aren't weird, but behavior is in some cases so far from that of a normal, emotionally healthy adult it's hard to answer "Nah . . . you're fine."

My first 'encounter' occurred when I got my first job upon arrival. In a gross conversational blunder, I asked this woman to just sum up the LDS faith to me, since I had just moved to Utah (to snowboard only, by the way, not to partake in deep religious discussion). 10 minutes later this woman had been overcome with emotion, and was standing there in front of me, a perfect stranger at the time, just crying. She went on to marry a return missionary she had just met 2 weeks prior. Normal behavior? Big-time weirdo church influence? Was I scared? I mean, what do you say to some one you just met, standing in front of you crying for no reason? "I'm sorry, but I just remembered I left a bomb at the airport, and . . ."

So I guess this state is forever divided amongst these two peaceful factions, one striving so desperately to keep their beliefs intact in the laughing face of the other.

And that's as poetic as I get.

Anyway, like I said, I look forward to the rest of the story, and sorry about the silly novel-like comment.

Not silly at all, and your comments barely make the scales tip from "anecdote" to "short story." ;)

The bizarre and scary thing about the way that Mormons can cry virtually on demand, at least in my mind, is that it's so genuine and sincere. Reminds me of the footage of young girls spontaneously bursting into tears at Beatles concerts.

There's a lot of dross on the web, but sometimes you come across things that you not have found by any other means. Your stories about life in the LDS are in the second category. Pure gold. Thanks.

Your theological speculation on the role of Judas jogged a memory from my youthful days of "O Level" English Literature. Have you read "King Jesus" by Robert Graves? He also has Judas betraying Jesus in order to fulfil the prophecies of the Messiah.

I've never read it, but I take a look for it on the shelves of the local library. Thanks for the kind words.

I was just curious. Did you ever find the Real Christ?

Yes. It was the day I appeared as a panelist on the game show What's My Line?, and I guessed correctly that Jesus #3 was the Real Christ. (The stigmata were a dead giveaway.) Incidentally, that bit of erudition earned ten thousand bucks for my favorite charity, the Anti-Defamation League. Next question?

Bill, why is it that alotta uninformed LDS dickweeds respond to your page? Maybe you should create two pages, one for rational questions and the other for bearing of testimonies/casting hellfire.

Sure thing. And then I'll create a third for the Neanderthals who hurl dopey epithets at the Church and its members instead of offering intelligent criticism of same. At least you picked an appropriate nom de plume, you knuckle-dragging troglodyte.

First off, where can I find a good place to eat in Brooklyn? Preferably near the airport, I'll be layed over at JFK for one night in March.

I'm assuming you used to work at WordPerfect. Well, I applied there in 1990. They refused me because, and please try not to laugh, I was a Windows programmer! I guess they were looking for DOS and OS/2 hackers. My cousin worked there for about five years in shipping. He got $800 a month for six months when they layed him off.

Anyway, I enjoyed your Mormon Matter page, glad to see you finally got your life back. Especially when it concerns corporate religion. It kinda reminds me of those snake oil charlatans at the turn of the century, except with a religious twist as opposed to a baldness cure. Then again, at the first ressurection, "not one hair shall be lost" - ha ha ha. I guess they did throw in a baldness cure to boot! Damn I'm a negative, sarcastic ass. Ha ha.

I served an LDS mission myself some time ago (I am male despite my unisex name) and I tweaked my weekly numbers as well. Unlike you, though, I didn't make out with anyone on my mission. I will forever envy you for that. Me and my district leader (AKA my best bud) went on splits to teach these girls at University of Miami and they were freakin' gorgeous! They wanted us badly! They actually asked us out on a date! And what did we do? Consult the white bible. C'est la mission.

Anyway, good luck with your writing career. Yer damn good.

Oh, and there were PLENTY of company's out there who were willing to pay big bucks for Windows programmers ... wink wink.

Carpe diem, Dana,

Unfortunately, I can't help you carpe any dinner near JFK. The airport's actually in Queens, and it's a hell of a long walk from my pad. (Just witness how much trouble %@&@^*!! and I had getting there last year to catch a flight to Austin, Texas. Ever seen Quick Change with Bill Murray and Geena Davis? Like that.) If you had more than a couple of hours, I could show you some good spots closer to home.

Being raised a mormon, serving a mission and being married in the temple I find myself pretty sound although I still have questions like any other LDS person. My point to you is, do you believe in the Bible and take it literally?

Believe it or not, I find myself following the Bible more than The Book of Mormon. Why? I don't know? What I do know though is that most everything that is found in the Bible is found in the Book of Mormon. (e.g.; baptism by immersion, repentance, paying tithing) I feel that yes, these things need to happen in ones life because, again, it's found in the Bible.

When I die and perhaps find out that the Church of Jesus Christ was a hoax all along, big deal! I lived the best I could, I raised my family in a church that I believe has the best taught morals of any church on the face of this earth. I paid my tithing as talked in Malachi. Where my 10% goes, I don't care. If it goes for the wrong puposes, it's on their heads, not mine. Tell me, am I so wrong?

A comment on your page. I found your site to be quite humorous. I also find it a way for you to escape perhaps some of your frustrations of the church. My question to you, why rip apart the LDS church and their beliefs? If you have feelings of remorse and negative views, why not keep them to yourself and live with it instead of getting your kicks by doing what you do?

It seems that I read more negative material on the LDS church than I do about any other. Honestly, the only thing that it does for me is build a strong testimony that perhaps the church is true because of all the negative comments that I come across. I honestly believe that Satan is apart of it all and if he truly is, so help you God.

You sound like a man who is hedging his bets -- the kind of man who risks condemnation from God for being neither hot nor cold, under the terms of your own theology. Let's talk about this laissez-faire attitude you have toward the disposal of your tithing money. You're unconcerned that your tithing money might be dedicated to overthrowing an important piece of social legislation like the ERA, or to buying fake historical documents from a proto-murderer like Mark Hoffman. Pal, you're no better than the Germans who stood aside and let the Nazis do as they pleased, or the New Yorkers who gawked from their apartment windows while Kitty Genovese was stabbed thirty-eight times, without even dialing 911. It's your money -- you bear a share of the guilt for anything evil that's done with it, smug complaisance notwithstanding.

I don't know if you know, but the Utah Libraries web site listed your Mormon Matter page at this web page:

      http://www.state.lib.ut.us/resource/religion.htm

It listed you along with the official and unofficial LDS- related links.

Hey, what do you know? The Utah State Library Division thinks I'm a valid religious resource! Lends my little site a certain cachet, n'est-ce pas?

Just a comment: you say that Cooperative Scrabble is a favorite activity "at chez nous." The French expression "chez nous" means "at our place." Therefore, your sentence is really saying "at" twice. Since the rest of your homepage is so well done (and your other French expressions are all correct) why not fix this one little error?!!!

(It's like when I see "hot beef sandwich with au jus" on menus, it drives me crazy.)

That's a lot of exclamation points, there, cherie. You're absolutely correct, though -- I messed up. But it's all fixed now, and I hope you like me again. ;)

As First Counselor of the Elder's Quorom of the Flager Ward in Miami, I found your missionary adventures very amusing.

Retelling them during the ward tmeple trip to Orlando, certainly makes the trip shorter! Also I can then quiz the "returned" missionaries on the various "lingo".

I am a convert to the Church and have been a member for over thirteen years, though not completely active for all of those years.

I'm happy with the Church. My wife was already a member when I married her. Sure it has its idiosyncrasies, but so did the Catholic Church. The stories I could relate. I was the Sacristan, Holder of the Keys, Bearer of the Cross.....on and on and on.

I feel that our spirituality is alike a spectrum, we move from one end to another as situations and experiences evolve. I have other ideas, but I'm not the "proselytizing" type; that's for everyone to figure out for themselves.

Best regards!

Amen. Pages like this one exist so that people can make informed choices as they figure things out for themselves. The important thing is that they think and reason, and not simply tag along blindly. Thanks for writing.

Mr. Penn,

Hi, this is my third or fourht letter to you. I am still wondering why you havent responded to it. You responded that you hve tons of mail to read. And yet, you were able to read my second letter asking for a response and tell me you had too much mail. I am confused. You have posted letters on your sight that are dated well after my letter. Maybe my letter was not quite the right material for your page, but I was hoping for a response from you. And after taking a second look I realize that the letters you post are either

1. People who agree with you
2. People who dont agree with you but express themselves in a way you can easily ridicule thus getting the last word.

However I realize that it is YOUR sight and you are allowed to do as you please. However when I first saw your page I was convinced that you had posted the page in a real effort to find the Lord. But I see now it is there so that you can vent personal attacks on the church, and thats ok, again it is your page. But I want you to know that you have lost seriuos credibility in my eyes. Weahter that matters to you or not, I dont know, but I hope the Lord is more forgiving then I when you are judged for your biaest ATTEMPT to lure sprits away. I am glad for people like you, because they only make the truth more evident.

Thank you and No Thank you For your time.

Hmm. Well, let's see. I could ridicule you for your poor spelling, or I could lambaste you for getting my name egregiously incorrect . . . but that would be too easy. Wait, I know! I'll -- i'll actually answer your question! What a revolutionary idea!

Try to stick with me here. This is going to be complicated. The mail I receive about my Web site falls into two categories: Web Feedback, and non-Web Feedback. If you read the submission rules with care, you will note that, in order to have your message considered for inclusion on this page, you must either submit your letter via the feedback form or send it via email with "Web Feedback" as the subject line. (Apparently you figured that out at last. Congratulations.)

Anyway, all my Web Feedback mail gets stored automatically in a format that makes it easy for me to merge it into this page. All I need to do is execute one cut-and-paste operation, then compose witty and erudite replies, and voilà! My letters page is updated.

I consider my non-Web Feedback mail, in most (but not all) instances, to be less urgent. I read it all, but I rarely respond immediately. In fact, if you look at the rules again, you may note that I explicitly do not promise to respond to email. I have a stock reply ready for people who complain about my silence, and this is what you received after sending me your second piece of non-Web Feedback mail.

Still with me? All right, on to your implication that I pick and choose what mail will appear on this page in order to make myself look better. One word: poppycock. The fact is, I post every piece of mail that is sent to me explicitly as Web Feedback. Every one. Why don't I post non-Web Feedback? Because this way I don't have to bother obtaining permission before posting something. The sender has granted me implicit permission already, which saves me immeasurable time and effort.

(Do this for me -- check out Tim Andrasek's letter, which arrived just before yours, and tell me which of your two categories it falls into. Five bucks says you can't make it fit into either one and still be honest with yourself.)

To sum up, every Web Feedback letter gets posted. Even this idiotic one of yours. Your original letter didn't get posted because it was not labeled Web Feedback -- simple as that. It may never even get answered. You pays your money, you takes your chances. I don't make any promises.

"No Man Knows My Pancreas" ... I have gotten so many laughs out of that game! Thank you for including that in your website.

I especially like it when Satan calls Joe Smith an "insufferable turdburglar." I fell off my chair laughing so hard. I didn't know where all of that stuff (entering words) was leading to, well, I did sort of, but not completely. What a treat! Everyone needs a good laugh. Thanks again!

So glad you enjoy the game! And allow me to compliment you on your . . . creative vocabulary. ;)

I enjoy your website. Love the "Road To Apostasy"! Keep it up! Your missionary story is hilarious. It took me a while to read it, but it was well worth it! You seem like a very down-to-earth individual. I'm sorry it was so difficult to get out of the church. I could go on at length with some stories of my own about friends who also had a tough time letting go. I myself left after. I actually had a "trial membership" in the church which didn't last long. When I read about the "Reformed Egyptian" bit and about the Kinderhook Plates, It undermined for me the credibility of the entire Mormon theology. I also left because I couldn't handle the humorlessness and cynicism of most members I knew. It seem as if they couldn't be themselves. They were always trying to be perfect. Anyway, a question for you about missionaries: Why are so many of them so uptight and humorless? At my business we have a client who is handicapped and a different group of missionaries come over each time to do his business. We try to be friendly and warm them up, but they are SO stiff! you can't warm them up or joke with them at all. It it against the rules for them to smile or laugh? Anyway, enough for now. Keep up the good work, and thanks for reading my letter!

I think many missionaries are uptight because they're hyper-aware of the seriousness of their callings -- they have the responsibility for saving the eternal souls of men (and women), after all. But somehow they've gotten the notion that humor and good cheer are incompatible with this aim. Maybe it's some warped application of the commandment in the temple ceremony to avoid loud laughter. Who knows? All I know is that a mission would be a dreary thing if you couldn't crack a smile.

I'm sorry to report that the link to one of the other Mormon-related pages doesn't work any more. When I tried to go to "And Then I Cried: The Mormon Apology Home Page" (Kevin DeShazer) the screen went blank and then a message appeared that said something like, "Out of respect for family wishes, this site is no longer active." Just thought you'd want to know if you didn't already.

Damn. Family pressure wipes out another fine ex-Mormon site. Kevin's was one of the more uplifting of the bunch, too. Chalk another one up for the censors.

Well, friend, I gotta tell you as a still practicing LDS, there were a few moments there when you got my goat. Still, the fact that I'm here says I'm not satisfied with sitting around waiting to hear the same old tired advice out of Salt Lake City passed out as "revelation" twice a year. I'm exploring the stories of others who have left the church seeking to find those who honestly had no bone to pick with the church at the time they left. While I am somewhat dissapointed by several historical vs. accomodational aspects of the doctrine, I must admit, even though I adhere pretty closely to the party-line, I, too have experienced the double-standard of free-agency vs. authoritarianism in the Church. What can I say? I am most likely on the road, also.

Now that I have bared my soul, please, anonymously for now, let me say that I enjoyed much of the humor section. And was knocked out by your missionary stories! I'll be back often to see what's new. And since you now avoid God, I'll simply wish you, Good Journey!

Here's your goat back. I tried hiding him in my closet, but he ate my letter jacket. I tell you, that's my last college prank . . .

Hi, your website is really cool. I am writing a term paper due dangerously soon on the government of Utah and how it is influenced by the Mormon religion, if you had any help on this subject I would be indebted to you for all time. I am also a writer, though nothing of mine is published ... yet!

That's the spirit! (But I fear I'm too late to help you with your paper, even if I'd had any good information. Maybe next time. Are you cute?)

I don't know if you remember me from Xenobia, but I found your page and decided to send a note. I always had so much fun reading your stories, and we all do miss you. This page is wild! You had me hooked with the mission story and I spent several nights reading it all -- since I only heard such a small part of the story. I hope things are going well. I'm still struggling to get my work published. Maybe someday. Good luck and get in touch if you have time.

Hey, Maurene! Of course I remember you! I couldn't forget any of my old workshop colleagues! Thanks for the note, and let me know when you start getting published!

I think I might understand a little more about Mormonism now. (All I knew about before was from when one of my professors tried to explain it through cognitive dissonance. And I think I slept through most of it...) Thanks.

I knew a Mormon girl in high school, and she's probably quite a nice person in general, but whenever we ate lunch with the same group, at some point she'd look at me and inform me that I was depressed.

"What?" I'd say. "It's just a black sweater."

(well, not everyday I'd be wearing black, but that was the incident I remember the most. And maybe she said I was depressing, rather than depressed.)

I never found out why (maybe because I was sceptical about all faiths at the time, or because I read H.P. Lovecraft?).

My thought's projection, but then, I've taken more than my share of psychology courses.

Pointless, ne?

Not pointless. I'd put my money on projection myself.

Do you take pride in attempting to belittle the beliefs of others, warping them and taking them out of context? That is a very special gift you have, isn't it? By the account you gave of the "mormon mythology" it shows that you have a background in religious study, or at least of mormonology. It is a shame you don't have the intellectual appreciation that is the goal of the educated. To gain the understanding through an -emic perspective is much more meaningful than to only have an -etic perspective. Many can memorize and regurgitate facts and data, twisting them in an attempt to analyze them based on their own beliefs. Few are able to appreciate anothers beliefs for what they are without judging. Have any Mormons tied you up and forced you to attend their meetings or convert to their beliefs?

I don't think I have any more obligation to "appreciate" the beliefs of the L.D.S. than I do to appreciate the beliefs of the Flat Earth Society. I'm all for tolerance -- I have plenty of friends who are still members of the Church, and for the most part we get along fine. I still like my friends who smoke, too, even though I think they should probably quit. I have far less liking for the tobacco-company executives, whom I believe to be a uniformly amoral bunch. Relate this to the Mormon Church as you will -- particularly to President Gordon B. "Lied to the Cops and Helped a Murderer Get Off with a Rap on the Knuckles to Cover the Church's Ass" Hinckley.

I FIND THIS PAGE VERY DISTURBING. THE TRUTH ABOUT THE MORMONS YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOU WERE A MISSIONARY FOR TWO YEARS OF YOUR LIFETIME. YOU'D KNOW THE BELEIFS THAT WE HOLD SACRED AND DEAR. THIS PAGE IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK THE LORD WOULD BE VERY UPSET AT YOU FOR WRITTING. YOU SHOULD REALLY BE ASHAMED THAT YOU EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT WRITTING THIS WORTHLESS PIECE OF CRAP (I WOULD SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT BUT SINCE I AM MORMON I WILL NOT)

THIS SHOULD NOT EVEN BE ALLOWED TO BE CALLED A RELIGIOUS PAGE. I DON'T EVEN REALLY WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU, BUT IF YOU DO TAKE THE TIME TO WRITE I WILL RETURN SOME TO YOU. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WILL SAY SO LET'S NOT HAVE TOO MUCH CORESPONDENCE. THANK YOU.

You should really be ashamed that you even thought about implying the word "shit," good Mormon that you are. And what's all this hullabaloo about calling my page religious? James, James. I think your problem basically boils down to a fear of words. Unfortunately, your fear is misplaced. Words aren't the things you should fear -- you should fear the concepts behind them.

Of course, it takes a certain measure of cognitive ability to fear a concept . . .

How can you call yourself a missionary!? You preached the truth at one point in your life (more importantly our promise) and I suggest you should re-evaluate what you now think is the truth! You know that there for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction, this holds true eternally as well!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why there will be a everlasting torment for people like you who go against what you know is true! Your statements make me think of a son of perdition, how about yourself? When you come to your senses, I think that you should recall every word you have put into people's heads. In 9 months I will be out there being your opposite but equal reaction!

Your brother in truth and your enemy in disbelief.

Three points, Amos ol' buddy:

1. I don't call myself a missionary.
2. Any God that would torment me for following my conscience is a monster not worthy of my devotion.
3. You may attempt an opposite reaction, but I doubt it will be equal.

Your letter and James Garcia's (see above) arrived all bundled up and cozy in the same email message. Would you have had the courage to say what you said on your own, I wonder? But that's why missionaries are sent forth in twos . . .

Hey, Congratulations. Glad to see your Mormon Terrorist Experience is going to be a movie. I'm sure it won't be nearly as good as the book, but . . . Must 'uv just happened today (12/13/96) 'cause I was on earlier and didn't see the update. Anyway, again, congratulations, hope you make a trillion . . . (I figure it'll take more than just a million to unseat Gordo.)

Haven't sent any feedback for a while, but I've been checkin' in regulaly to see how the folks are treating you. Feel almost sorry for the poor Aaronic Priesthood holders trying to save your soul (or convince you you're going to hell), but almost scarier is the thought that they might be Melchizedek Priesthood holders with ALL THAT POWER!!!

I like the comments you and some of your guests make about the nature of God, especially your motto, "Beware of God." Thought I was the only one who thought that way. I've figured for a long time that if God is really the way we were taught in Sunday School, Primary, MIA, and whatever other organization they had for us, I really didn't want to spend eternity with Him. I mean really, make peple take vows not to reveal secret handshakes at the expense of having your throat cut, your heart violently removed, or your bowels disemboweled??? ("Bowels disembowled??? Ok, I'm not an English Major. But it would play well in front of a jury.) But really folks, this God guy send His Only Begotten Son down to a planet where they just wanna fuck with him??? And God did this to His Only Begotten Son on purpose??? Thanks, but no thanks. Bet Jesus really wishes he were a bastard.

Keep up the good work Bill. But for Godsake . . . well, for us anyway . . . get to work on The Road to Apostasy!!! Yeah, we know, you need to earn a living, but hey, who do you think is going to go watch The Accidental Terrorist anyway???

Love ya, guy!

Thanks for the congratulations. An option doesn't guarantee that our screenplay will be made into a movie, though -- it just gives Maple Palm Productions the right to try to get the project underway for the next six months. So keep your fingers crossed that they find some big studio bucks to back them up!

Hi! You've heard from me once or twice before . . . I like to wander through your pages about once a week to see if you've been up to anything new. When I moved to a rural part of South Dakota a couple of years ago, I discovered an extremely high concentration of Mormons in the area, and as such have become quite familiar with their beliefs and lifestyle. From what I have observed, it's not really that they're such bad people, it just seems like they're so willing to accept whatever is fed to them by the church without finding any answers for themselves. At any rate, that's why I enjoy Mormon Matter; I see it all around me every day, and it's nice to see your lighthearted perspective on the Mormon world without forgetting the truly damaging effects it can have on a person's life. Hmmm. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but hopefully you get the general idea.

Well, the real reason I wrote to you was just to say congratulations on The Accidental Terrorist being optioned. It's a great story. Best of luck to you in all of your future endeavors.

I had no idea there was a populous Mormon enclave in South Dakota. Keep on keeping the faith, and don't let 'em get you near water!

Just had to comment on the latest installment (5th) of THE ROAD TO APOSTASY. I had been planning to send you a series of feedback memos on various things but will do that later.

You are very accurate in your description of the steps required in the Mormon Church to repent. What a terrible burden to fear to have your former sins return upon you! That was NOT what I learned in the Lutheran Church that I grew up in, fortunately (or in other traditional Christian churches in general)! This is best expressed by Psalm 103:8-12 among others.

That is why this 'former Mormon investigator' will never become a Mormon. The various reasons why will take at least two or more memos! The Mormon religion is simply a heartbreakingly impossible religion to live your life by.

After reading especially about your father feeling a very worthless and vile sinner and being determined to have his children do better than he did in the Mormon Church, this thought occurred to me. Your father felt he failed to live up to his potential according to Mormon standards and felt something was wrong with him. You encountered the same impossible standards but took the thought a bit further and recognized there was something wrong with the Mormon system, period. That is one way to think about your father and his approach that he took for his family regarding the Mormon Church (why he acted the way he did).

There are many things I agree and disgree with in your web pages and the future feedback will deal with this. From your general tone of your pages, you welcome all thoughts and comments, regardless of whether you agree or not.

More later...

Yes, I generally welcome comments of any sort -- save for those like the one I received a while back from two Mormon missionaries in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, who felt some strange need to call me "Freakboy." I can do without those. Thank you for yours.

Installment #5 very interesting. As I grew up Mormon, I too was terrified at the thought of the 2nd coming. I wonder how many of us were?

I have a teenage daughter who loves science fiction. She was reading Orson Scott Card one day, and said, "This is the plot of the book of Mormon!" Apparently he has a series out that parallels some of the Book of Mormon? Hey, maybe you can make it big with the Doctrine and Covenants. Too bad there is no plot there. Too bad my daughter wastes her time reading the Book of Mormon, but you can't blame her there since we reside in Utah.

Keep writing the story. I shall wait breathlessly for future installments.

Scott Card's five-volume Homecoming series is what you're referring to. He lifted the plot -- and several character names -- wholesale from the Book of Mormon, yes, but he managed the rather impressive feat of providing comprehensible human motivations for most of the characters. This was a Book of Mormon to which I could relate.

My compliments on this professionally executed and introspection-provoking web site. I don't agree with some of your conclusions, but your treatment of the subject matter is consistently fair, and the humanity you weave into the material is most enjoyable. You also have a talent for storytelling.

I don't know if you gave your wit and perspicacity free rein while you were a Mormon, but I hope so, for the sake of your former Ward members. There are few things as tedious as religion without a sense of humor. I refuse to believe in a God that can't take a joke.

If I may share some "f.." words: Frothing, fomenting fervor fawning as fealty fairly frequently fails to facilitate functional faith or friendly feelings.

(I have to use big words or they'll revoke my degree...)

You force me humbly to admit that I usually brought the house down when I spoke in sacrament meeting. (Not literally, like Samson, but figuratively. The long hair didn't come until later.) At my mission homecoming, I took the meeting twenty minutes overtime, and people still came up to me wiping their streaming eyes and telling me they could have listened to me talk all day. The memories almost make me want to go back to sacrament meeting . . .

When I die and St. Peter asks me if I believe the word of God to be true, and I say "No," will he let me in Heaven because I'm honest?

If there's any justice in this world (or rather, the next).

Last night I had this terrible dream that my Dad had died. I woke up crying, and although I don't think my wife knew, I was very upset over it all, and wished I could hug my dad and tell him I loved him.

I worry that some of the things that you are saying on your Road to Apostasy pages will make saying I love you to your dad all that much harder when the time comes, if you even get the chance. Remember that everything you write gets read, and if you continue to tear down your Dad, even for the wrongs he justly deserves shit for, could cause you and him to never be reconciled.

You may already be on good terms with your dad and can do this now, but re-read what you have written, keeping this in mind...

My father historically closes his ears when I talk about what he might have done better with him when I was growing up. That won't keep me from telling him that I love him, though. I do, damn him.

Not that I was -- or am now -- a perfect son. But he's free to tell the world so, and you won't hear me complain if he does.

Ran across the following joke recently. It doesn't have anything to do with Mormons, but it's got a bit of a religious theme ... well, kinda.

So, these two leprechauns approach a priest in an Irish cathedral. One of the leprechauns hangs back a bit, looking a little sheepish. The other one speaks up. "Father, are there any leprechaun nuns in this parish?"

"No, my son," answers the priest. "There are no leprechaun nuns in this parish."

"Father, are there any leprechaun nuns in Ireland," queries the leprechaun.

"No, my son, there are no leprechaun nuns in Ireland," confirms the priest.

The leprechaun who was hanging back began to get a bit restless, pulling on his buddy's arm, saying, "C'mon, we've gotta get going." But his friend persisted.

"Father," the leprechaun asked finally, "Are there any leprechaun nuns in all of this whole wide world?"

The priest replied, "No, my son, there are no leprechaun nuns anywhere in the world."

With that, the questioning leprechaun let out a boistrous laugh, turned to his friend, and jeered, "See, I told you that you boinked a penguin."

Merry Xmas.

I'm starting to think that maybe I should start a joke page all about Catholicism. Goodness knows there's plenty of material. Thanks for the good laugh!

Hey guy, the first time I wrote you I told my oldest son was headed for the Calgary Mission. Well, he's there and, it being Christmas, I called him to visit. (Missionaries sure have it easy now. When I was on my mission in Germany in 1974-76, we never had phones, or cars, or microwave ovens!!!) Anyway, I had told him before his mission to check out your web site, which he did and read the terrorist story. He found it pretty entertaining, but I think he missed the subtle jabs at Mormon theology. Today, he told me that when he raised the subject of your exploits with his companion, he was told that the members know about it, but he wasn't to talk about it!!! God, does that church just not get it or what???? Yeah, let's bury our history. He also told me that the Canadian Calgary mission under Pres. Spafford is referred to as the Canadian Country Club mission. Damn, wish I could've been there. He told me to read the Book of Mormon. I suggested he read the Koran. Missionaries ... don't you just love 'em. Just can't stop ...

Love yer page guy! See ya around.

I wish I'd realized what a country club it was at the time! Ask your son if he gets to golf for free on Mondays -- one of those ministerial perks we used to get. Until the mainstream Protestant ministers started to complain about us, that is . . .

Marvelous thoughts on the preexistence and the role of Lucifer. I've often wondered about his possible redemption and his role ... (I laughed a lot at the way you put it and I found it refreshing.) Too many take themselves and their finite knowledge too seriously...

I have experienced 3 Nephi 9:20 many times and have found peace and happiness in letting others think what they want... I often find great truths where I least expect them... I enjoyed yours.

I'm 43 have 5 children and a wonderful wife and we struggle from day to day to survive ....

I'm rather unlearned and continually seeking new thoughts and ideas....

I find tranquility and peace in worshipping the God who knelt and prayed and wept and healed ... He did this after his resurrection and still does this .. He stands to receive me with open arms and heal me and encourage me for I have many weaknessess and I BELIEVE HE STANDS WITH OPEN ARMS TO RECEIVE ANY WHO WILL HUMBLE THEMSELVES AS HE DID AND DOES AND THAT INCLUDES THE bad guy (ol darkness himself).

Yes I'm kind of a rebel when it comes to Mormon theology but ... that is what makes it so fun... stirring the water a little....

Thanks again for your humor and your thoughts. Nice web page too.

Well, here's someone who tries not to take his opinions too seriously. Heck, if I did, then I'd probably try to put a hit on God instead of just making fun of him. (See, there I go again!)