Voices from the Dust: January 1997
previous: Voices from the Dust: December 1996
from a reader who has since repented of emailing (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
2 Jan 97, 2:44 p.m.
I just tapped into your new feature in Loud Laughter "No Man Knows My Pancreas." What a hoot!!! Unfortunately, after entering all the requested information, and reading the story of Joseph Smith's first vision, the King of the Cockroaches caused a burning in my bosom (actually it was a little lower and could be the beginnings of a mild case of gonorrhea), and I got a testimony that, in fact, the One True Marijuana Company has been restored and I should be immediately immersed . . . in smoke . . . so, gotta run and keep an appointment with the guys the Company uses to "teach us all that we must do," to come to a true understanding of the vitues of hemp. (I think they used to be called pushers, but now in California we can call them Company Health Care Givers. Cool.)
Happy New Year. Keep up the good work. (Uh oh, there I go, calling evil good and good evil. Bet the Book of Mormon has something to say about that!)
As a matter of fact, 2 Nephi 15:20 does indeed address the subject: "Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Which probably condemns not only me and the Church of the Righteous Herb, but Microsoft, ConEd, and Anheuser-Busch, too.
from Martin Silbernagl (m█████@w█████████.com)
3 Jan 97, 11:28 a.m.
I am glad you updated the caricature to reflect your new facial hair-style.
My motto is: "Never lie to the reader." Therefore when I shave, so does my caraicature. Have fun at work while I'm collecting unemployment!
(For those of you not in the know, Martin was my manager at Wanderlust Interactive, which laid off me and nineteen other low-seniority worthies the week of New Year's Day. Not his fault, though, so please don't flood him with outraged email.)
from Brad Hudson (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
3 Jan 97, 9:53 p.m.
I just finished my own private version [of "Joseph Smith's First Vision"]. My hat is off to you. So is my shirt. Laugh? I thought I'd die. I tremble in the presence of truly twisted greatness.
Keep up the good work.
Hey, what can I say? "No Man Knows My Pancreas" wouldn't have been possible without you . . . and you . . . and you . . .
from Lindsey Eastburn (l█████████████████@n████.███████.com)
4 Jan 97, 4:57 a.m.
During my first year of college, at age 18, I joined the church of Jesus Christ. I am now 37, and since then I have run into more beliefs, and biases than I could count. I have always remembered that there is some truth in every point of view. I am not a "joiner" or a conformist. I had rebelled against many established and commonly accepted points of view, especially because I felt that, since the world was going to Hell in a handbasket, why should I believe that any established norms were above question? I left the ranks of Protestants, sick of the glassy-eyed, disconnected way they treated their religion as if it could have no reconciliation with any other form of knowledge. There were alot of kind people but the system tended to breed Bible worshippers and bigots.
The doctrine of the LDS church was a breath of fresh air to me. I have found it to be the most tolerant and comprehensive of all. I knew it was true as if I had known it all of my life. It became deeply personal to me. No man gave it to me. The experiences I had when I decided to ask if it was true will never be known but to God and me.
You can understand then why I tire of people who lay responsibility for all of the garbage that happens to them on their church. On any church for that matter. But especially what I call "Catholic Mormons." Those who think that the mere circumstance of their birth in Utah and subsequent adherence to societal norms of missions and Temple marriages somehow make them special. Much of what you and other "children of record" seem to miss is that life was designed by God to teach all His children. Being Mormon doesn't exempt you. On the contrary! You're like kids who grow up with the answers to the final exam and think you therefore understand the subject. That's human nature. I admit I can't imagine what it must be to grow up in Utah, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I have never found a set of principles which so simply and clearly empower an individual to make a spiritual connection with the Creator. Although many of your observations are real, most of them are artifacts of culture and humanity. You have not yet become acquainted with the gospel. If you will keep an open heart, allow yourself to someday stumble back to the place where you started -- for the first time.
Joining the Church nineteen years ago would mean that you were baptized either shortly before or shortly after the "revelation" that extended priesthood blessings to blacks, thereby defusing Stanford University's refusal to play football against B.Y.U. Oh, yes, very tolerant religion you found yourself -- especially when lucrative college sports are at issue.
And that third paragraph of yours is just a fractured mass of inconsistency. First you get on my case for blaming all my "garbage" on the Church -- which I've never done -- and then you take me to task for acting like a pious, spoiled Mormon brat. Which am I? An apostate with no sense of personal responsibility or a Utah Mormon with a hyperinflated sense of specialness? Make up your mind. I grew up more or less like a kid who'd been given the answers to the final exam, yes -- but then when I graduated, I discovered not only that my school had never been accredited, but also that it was situated on Mars instead of Earth.
And talk about kids being given the answers. What else is the Mormon temple ceremony but an elaborate cram session for that Great Final Exam at the gates of heaven? Write again when you've come down from your high horse and found a place in your heart for that ideal of tolerance you so greatly vaunt.
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
7 Jan 97, 4:28 a.m.
Hi there. I'm a non-LDS, native Californian living in SLC UT for the past 3 years.
Your Story:
This is an interesting story, at least up to chapter 14, where I must pause for the brief intermission "bedtime". I can't wait to read the rest tomorrow. It's well written, and moves along quickly. I like it. My personal revue (sought after by authors world-wide) is "Cool".
My Story (for boring/entertainment purposes only):
In my short time here, I've been exposed to a few but (by my standards of normal behavior) extreme cases of the LDS influence over the population. And I must say, without intent of insult, that from what I've seen the entire Mormon mindset scares me to death. It seems to be . . . Hitler was replaced by a hallucinogenic Disney.
I've talked with a few to several women, very nice women who were all with the church. What I've found to be interesting is that each and every one of them would consistently confront me with: "You think I'm weird, don't you?". Sometimes it's asked with this tone of voice that sounds like their own thoughts are struggling to break free of some LDS 'Vulcan Mind Meld'. I'm no psychologist, but it sounds like a full blown case of insecurity. Most aren't weird, but behavior is in some cases so far from that of a normal, emotionally healthy adult it's hard to answer "Nah . . . you're fine."
My first 'encounter' occurred when I got my first job upon arrival. In a gross conversational blunder, I asked this woman to just sum up the LDS faith to me, since I had just moved to Utah (to snowboard only, by the way, not to partake in deep religious discussion). 10 minutes later this woman had been overcome with emotion, and was standing there in front of me, a perfect stranger at the time, just crying. She went on to marry a return missionary she had just met 2 weeks prior. Normal behavior? Big-time weirdo church influence? Was I scared? I mean, what do you say to some one you just met, standing in front of you crying for no reason? "I'm sorry, but I just remembered I left a bomb at the airport, and . . ."
So I guess this state is forever divided amongst these two peaceful factions, one striving so desperately to keep their beliefs intact in the laughing face of the other.
And that's as poetic as I get.
Anyway, like I said, I look forward to the rest of the story, and sorry about the silly novel-like comment.
Not silly at all, and your comments barely make the scales tip from "anecdote" to "short story." ;)
The bizarre and scary thing about the way that Mormons can cry virtually on demand, at least in my mind, is that it's so genuine and sincere. Reminds me of the footage of young girls spontaneously bursting into tears at Beatles concerts.
from Peter Card (p████.████@j██.uk)
7 Jan 97, 8:40 a.m.
There's a lot of dross on the web, but sometimes you come across things that you not have found by any other means. Your stories about life in the LDS are in the second category. Pure gold. Thanks.
Your theological speculation on the role of Judas jogged a memory from my youthful days of "O Level" English Literature. Have you read "King Jesus" by Robert Graves? He also has Judas betraying Jesus in order to fulfil the prophecies of the Messiah.
I've never read it, but I take a look for it on the shelves of the local library. Thanks for the kind words.
from Warren Brown (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
9 Jan 97, 3:08 a.m.
I was just curious. Did you ever find the Real Christ?
Yes. It was the day I appeared as a panelist on the game show What's My Line?, and I guessed correctly that Jesus #3 was the Real Christ. (The stigmata were a dead giveaway.) Incidentally, that bit of erudition earned ten thousand bucks for my favorite charity, the Anti-Defamation League. Next question?
from Ignor Amus (L██@S██████.com)
9 Jan 97, 11:00 p.m.
Bill, why is it that alotta uninformed LDS dickweeds respond to your page? Maybe you should create two pages, one for rational questions and the other for bearing of testimonies/casting hellfire.
Sure thing. And then I'll create a third for the Neanderthals who hurl dopey epithets at the Church and its members instead of offering intelligent criticism of same. At least you picked an appropriate nom de plume, you knuckle-dragging troglodyte.
from Dana Hirsch (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
11 Jan 97, 9:34 p.m.
First off, where can I find a good place to eat in Brooklyn? Preferably near the airport, I'll be layed over at JFK for one night in March.
I'm assuming you used to work at WordPerfect. Well, I applied there in 1990. They refused me because, and please try not to laugh, I was a Windows programmer! I guess they were looking for DOS and OS/2 hackers. My cousin worked there for about five years in shipping. He got $800 a month for six months when they layed him off.
Anyway, I enjoyed your Mormon Matter page, glad to see you finally got your life back. Especially when it concerns corporate religion. It kinda reminds me of those snake oil charlatans at the turn of the century, except with a religious twist as opposed to a baldness cure. Then again, at the first ressurection, "not one hair shall be lost" - ha ha ha. I guess they did throw in a baldness cure to boot! Damn I'm a negative, sarcastic ass. Ha ha.
I served an LDS mission myself some time ago (I am male despite my unisex name) and I tweaked my weekly numbers as well. Unlike you, though, I didn't make out with anyone on my mission. I will forever envy you for that. Me and my district leader (AKA my best bud) went on splits to teach these girls at University of Miami and they were freakin' gorgeous! They wanted us badly! They actually asked us out on a date! And what did we do? Consult the white bible. C'est la mission.
Anyway, good luck with your writing career. Yer damn good.
Oh, and there were PLENTY of company's out there who were willing to pay big bucks for Windows programmers ... wink wink.
Carpe diem, Dana,
Unfortunately, I can't help you carpe any dinner near JFK. The airport's actually in Queens, and it's a hell of a long walk from my pad. (Just witness how much trouble %@&@^*!! and I had getting there last year to catch a flight to Austin, Texas. Ever seen Quick Change with Bill Murray and Geena Davis? Like that.) If you had more than a couple of hours, I could show you some good spots closer to home.
from Shaun Stevenett (c█████████@j███.com)
12 Jan 97, 11:43 a.m.
Being raised a mormon, serving a mission and being married in the temple I find myself pretty sound although I still have questions like any other LDS person. My point to you is, do you believe in the Bible and take it literally?
Believe it or not, I find myself following the Bible more than The Book of Mormon. Why? I don't know? What I do know though is that most everything that is found in the Bible is found in the Book of Mormon. (e.g.; baptism by immersion, repentance, paying tithing) I feel that yes, these things need to happen in ones life because, again, it's found in the Bible.
When I die and perhaps find out that the Church of Jesus Christ was a hoax all along, big deal! I lived the best I could, I raised my family in a church that I believe has the best taught morals of any church on the face of this earth. I paid my tithing as talked in Malachi. Where my 10% goes, I don't care. If it goes for the wrong puposes, it's on their heads, not mine. Tell me, am I so wrong?
A comment on your page. I found your site to be quite humorous. I also find it a way for you to escape perhaps some of your frustrations of the church. My question to you, why rip apart the LDS church and their beliefs? If you have feelings of remorse and negative views, why not keep them to yourself and live with it instead of getting your kicks by doing what you do?
It seems that I read more negative material on the LDS church than I do about any other. Honestly, the only thing that it does for me is build a strong testimony that perhaps the church is true because of all the negative comments that I come across. I honestly believe that Satan is apart of it all and if he truly is, so help you God.
You sound like a man who is hedging his bets -- the kind of man who risks condemnation from God for being neither hot nor cold, under the terms of your own theology. Let's talk about this laissez-faire attitude you have toward the disposal of your tithing money. You're unconcerned that your tithing money might be dedicated to overthrowing an important piece of social legislation like the ERA, or to buying fake historical documents from a proto-murderer like Mark Hoffman. Pal, you're no better than the Germans who stood aside and let the Nazis do as they pleased, or the New Yorkers who gawked from their apartment windows while Kitty Genovese was stabbed thirty-eight times, without even dialing 911. It's your money -- you bear a share of the guilt for anything evil that's done with it, smug complaisance notwithstanding.
from Karen Keil (k████@i█.██████.com)
17 Jan 97, 2:06 p.m.
I don't know if you know, but the Utah Libraries web site listed your Mormon Matter page at this web page:
http://www.state.lib.ut.us/resource/religion.htm
It listed you along with the official and unofficial LDS- related links.
Hey, what do you know? The Utah State Library Division thinks I'm a valid religious resource! Lends my little site a certain cachet, n'est-ce pas?
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
23 Jan 97, 8:13 a.m.
Just a comment: you say that Cooperative Scrabble is a favorite activity "at chez nous." The French expression "chez nous" means "at our place." Therefore, your sentence is really saying "at" twice. Since the rest of your homepage is so well done (and your other French expressions are all correct) why not fix this one little error?!!!
(It's like when I see "hot beef sandwich with au jus" on menus, it drives me crazy.)
That's a lot of exclamation points, there, cherie. You're absolutely correct, though -- I messed up. But it's all fixed now, and I hope you like me again. ;)
from Tim Andrasek (a███████@b█████.net)
23 Jan 97, 3:32 p.m.
As First Counselor of the Elder's Quorom of the Flager Ward in Miami, I found your missionary adventures very amusing.
Retelling them during the ward tmeple trip to Orlando, certainly makes the trip shorter! Also I can then quiz the "returned" missionaries on the various "lingo".
I am a convert to the Church and have been a member for over thirteen years, though not completely active for all of those years.
I'm happy with the Church. My wife was already a member when I married her. Sure it has its idiosyncrasies, but so did the Catholic Church. The stories I could relate. I was the Sacristan, Holder of the Keys, Bearer of the Cross.....on and on and on.
I feel that our spirituality is alike a spectrum, we move from one end to another as situations and experiences evolve. I have other ideas, but I'm not the "proselytizing" type; that's for everyone to figure out for themselves.
Best regards!
Amen. Pages like this one exist so that people can make informed choices as they figure things out for themselves. The important thing is that they think and reason, and not simply tag along blindly. Thanks for writing.
from Larry Behrens (s█████@u███.████.edu)
24 Jan 97, 10:45 a.m.
Mr. Penn,
Hi, this is my third or fourht letter to you. I am still wondering why you havent responded to it. You responded that you hve tons of mail to read. And yet, you were able to read my second letter asking for a response and tell me you had too much mail. I am confused. You have posted letters on your sight that are dated well after my letter. Maybe my letter was not quite the right material for your page, but I was hoping for a response from you. And after taking a second look I realize that the letters you post are either
- People who agree with you
- People who dont agree with you but express themselves in a way you can easily ridicule thus getting the last word.
However I realize that it is YOUR sight and you are allowed to do as you please. However when I first saw your page I was convinced that you had posted the page in a real effort to find the Lord. But I see now it is there so that you can vent personal attacks on the church, and thats ok, again it is your page. But I want you to know that you have lost seriuos credibility in my eyes. Weahter that matters to you or not, I dont know, but I hope the Lord is more forgiving then I when you are judged for your biaest ATTEMPT to lure sprits away. I am glad for people like you, because they only make the truth more evident.
Thank you and No Thank you For your time.
Hmm. Well, let's see. I could ridicule you for your poor spelling, or I could lambaste you for getting my name egregiously incorrect . . . but that would be too easy. Wait, I know! I'll -- i'll actually answer your question! What a revolutionary idea!
Try to stick with me here. This is going to be complicated. The mail I receive about my Web site falls into two categories: Web Feedback, and non-Web Feedback. If you read the submission rules with care, you will note that, in order to have your message considered for inclusion on this page, you must either submit your letter via the feedback form or send it via email with "Web Feedback" as the subject line. (Apparently you figured that out at last. Congratulations.)
Anyway, all my Web Feedback mail gets stored automatically in a format that makes it easy for me to merge it into this page. All I need to do is execute one cut-and-paste operation, then compose witty and erudite replies, and voilà! My letters page is updated.
I consider my non-Web Feedback mail, in most (but not all) instances, to be less urgent. I read it all, but I rarely respond immediately. In fact, if you look at the rules again, you may note that I explicitly do not promise to respond to email. I have a stock reply ready for people who complain about my silence, and this is what you received after sending me your second piece of non-Web Feedback mail.
Still with me? All right, on to your implication that I pick and choose what mail will appear on this page in order to make myself look better. One word: poppycock. The fact is, I post every piece of mail that is sent to me explicitly as Web Feedback. Every one. Why don't I post non-Web Feedback? Because this way I don't have to bother obtaining permission before posting something. The sender has granted me implicit permission already, which saves me immeasurable time and effort.
(Do this for me -- check out Tim Andrasek's letter, which arrived just before yours, and tell me which of your two categories it falls into. Five bucks says you can't make it fit into either one and still be honest with yourself.)
To sum up, every Web Feedback letter gets posted. Even this idiotic one of yours. Your original letter didn't get posted because it was not labeled Web Feedback -- simple as that. It may never even get answered. You pays your money, you takes your chances. I don't make any promises.
from Sheila (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
24 Jan 97, 12:47 p.m.
"No Man Knows My Pancreas" ... I have gotten so many laughs out of that game! Thank you for including that in your website.
I especially like it when Satan calls Joe Smith an "insufferable turdburglar." I fell off my chair laughing so hard. I didn't know where all of that stuff (entering words) was leading to, well, I did sort of, but not completely. What a treat! Everyone needs a good laugh. Thanks again!
So glad you enjoy the game! And allow me to compliment you on your . . . creative vocabulary. ;)
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
25 Jan 97, 12:25 a.m.
I enjoy your website. Love the "Road To Apostasy"! Keep it up! Your missionary story is hilarious. It took me a while to read it, but it was well worth it! You seem like a very down-to-earth individual. I'm sorry it was so difficult to get out of the church. I could go on at length with some stories of my own about friends who also had a tough time letting go. I myself left after. I actually had a "trial membership" in the church which didn't last long. When I read about the "Reformed Egyptian" bit and about the Kinderhook Plates, It undermined for me the credibility of the entire Mormon theology. I also left because I couldn't handle the humorlessness and cynicism of most members I knew. It seem as if they couldn't be themselves. They were always trying to be perfect. Anyway, a question for you about missionaries: Why are so many of them so uptight and humorless? At my business we have a client who is handicapped and a different group of missionaries come over each time to do his business. We try to be friendly and warm them up, but they are SO stiff! you can't warm them up or joke with them at all. It it against the rules for them to smile or laugh? Anyway, enough for now. Keep up the good work, and thanks for reading my letter!
I think many missionaries are uptight because they're hyper-aware of the seriousness of their callings -- they have the responsibility for saving the eternal souls of men (and women), after all. But somehow they've gotten the notion that humor and good cheer are incompatible with this aim. Maybe it's some warped application of the commandment in the temple ceremony to avoid loud laughter. Who knows? All I know is that a mission would be a dreary thing if you couldn't crack a smile.
from s████@n████████.edu
28 Jan 97, 7:54 p.m.
I'm sorry to report that the link to one of the other Mormon-related pages doesn't work any more. When I tried to go to "And Then I Cried: The Mormon Apology Home Page" (Kevin DeShazer) the screen went blank and then a message appeared that said something like, "Out of respect for family wishes, this site is no longer active." Just thought you'd want to know if you didn't already.
Damn. Family pressure wipes out another fine ex-Mormon site. Kevin's was one of the more uplifting of the bunch, too. Chalk another one up for the censors.
from an anonymous reader (/dust/1997/01/voices-from-the-dust-january-1997.html)
31 Jan 97, 2:26 a.m.
Well, friend, I gotta tell you as a still practicing LDS, there were a few moments there when you got my goat. Still, the fact that I'm here says I'm not satisfied with sitting around waiting to hear the same old tired advice out of Salt Lake City passed out as "revelation" twice a year. I'm exploring the stories of others who have left the church seeking to find those who honestly had no bone to pick with the church at the time they left. While I am somewhat dissapointed by several historical vs. accomodational aspects of the doctrine, I must admit, even though I adhere pretty closely to the party-line, I, too have experienced the double-standard of free-agency vs. authoritarianism in the Church. What can I say? I am most likely on the road, also.
Now that I have bared my soul, please, anonymously for now, let me say that I enjoyed much of the humor section. And was knocked out by your missionary stories! I'll be back often to see what's new. And since you now avoid God, I'll simply wish you, Good Journey!
Here's your goat back. I tried hiding him in my closet, but he ate my letter jacket. I tell you, that's my last college prank . . .
from Selene Hausman (l█████████@a██.com)
31 Jan 97, 7:41 p.m.
Hi, your website is really cool. I am writing a term paper due dangerously soon on the government of Utah and how it is influenced by the Mormon religion, if you had any help on this subject I would be indebted to you for all time. I am also a writer, though nothing of mine is published ... yet!
That's the spirit! (But I fear I'm too late to help you with your paper, even if I'd had any good information. Maybe next time. Are you cute?)
