Kudos also to both you and %@&@^*!! for the &@+!f&=# site in general. I'm a biologist who's dabbled in web page design, and I really like what I see here.
OK, enough gushing. I look forward to updates to your page and tracking down some of your published work (I got here through SFFNet). Thanks for making life more enjoyable through your creative impulses!
Thanks for making my creative impulses feel as though they were not ill-spent! (Or is it wasted?)
Polish it. Sell it. And make a million bucks, Bill. You deserve it. (But your dad was probably right. As a good Mormon kid, presumably getting ready to go on a mission, you probably shouldn't have been writing it. But shit, I'm glad you did.)
P.S. Wanna come over some time with %@&@^*!! and play Ouija with me and my gal?
I'm not sure Christine was one of the master's better efforts, but hell, I'll take the compliment! And we'll be right over to channel those little ouija spirits -- or rather, to see which of us is more skilled at getting the pointer to go where he wants without the other players catching on. ;)
I promise that the sex in "The Road to Apostasy" is coming soon enough. Please be patient with me. And in the meantime, drop over to "Memos from the Moon," where I'll be dropping some titillating little tidbits from time to time . . .
your fruits:
• narcissism
• cynicism
• pessimism
• mistrust
• doubt
• disbelief...
how dark indeed.
let me pick from one of many examples in my life... say my grandmother's:
• selflessness
• genuineness
• optimism
• trust
• hope
• faith...
how light indeed.
both honest with ones life and its experiences i suppose. for that matter, both happy (cuz you say you are), both with tests and choices and regrets... as for the fruits, her legacy, your future...? like night and day.
offer me something more than witty tales on the backdrop of your mormon/exmormon life. mormon/exmormon agnostics are all the same: supposed intellectual/moral freedom/enlightenment... nothing to back it up with but their own pitiful negative experiences. (get over it already)
come on, you can do better than this... offer me something better!
Okay, here, have a cream puff. It's light and sweet and hardly filling at all. Bon appetit!
And for some reason I was drawn in to reading the whole enchilada or "drowning" as %@&@^*!! would say. Why? Partly for the knee-slapping humor, partly for the commonality of experiences both on the mission and church front, partly for the good reading and partly for understanding. Understanding? Yes, understanding and appreciating someone who feels passionately about what he does and is courageous enough to be so open with complete strangers about some very personal matters - Mormon or otherwise.
I know what you're thinking right now, "Where does this guy fall? Among the sympathetic former Mormons already on the expressway to apostasy? Or the self-righteous priests, high or low, on the highway to heaven (take a right turn before Jericho)?" Or, "What am I going to have for lunch/dinner?" Well, before I get neatly cubby-holed and dispatched with a one or two sentence courtesy reply, allow me to share a few thoughts.
Agnostic - "a person who believes that one cannot know whether there is a God or an ultimate cause" Webster's New World Dictionary
Hmm . . . sounds familiar, ". . . Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see . . . God--a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be . . . I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God . . ." Alma 30.
You would have gotten along nicely with one Korihor, of Book of Mormon fame. It seems that you've perused his experience with Alma at least a few times - see Ch. 3 sec. xi. The Revivalist. Even borrowed some lines from Alma, I see. Well, in case you're wondering, I am not writing to rehash all of Korihor vs. Alma with you. Rather, I would like to muse a little about one part of that encounter - signs.
Who gets to see an honest-to-goodness sign from heaven and who doesn't? Let's dig in to Voices from the Dust and see what you have had to say on the matter:
". . . Maybe if God himself came down and slapped me around -- à la Alma the Younger -- I'd decide to return to the Church. But it's more likely I wouldn't. I can't respect a God who plays favorites. Why should baddies like Saul and Alma get personal wake-up calls from God, when no one else does? Why hasn't the Big Man come down and straightened out Ed Decker? Why does he permit Jerald and Sandra Tanner to continue on their merry divisive way? Hey, for that matter, why didn't he recruit Hitler when he had the chance? Can you imagine what God could have accomplished with der Führer on his team? Who did Alma and Saul have to sleep with to become God's pets?" (Reply to 2/13/97 note from Shauna Conn Weller)
Tsk, tsk. Such fiery indignation, Bill. One too many cuppa joes that day? Let's clear up a few things here. Did Alma and Saul sleep with anyone [excuse your vulgarity] to qualify for the experience they had? Let's see what the ministering angel said to Alma on his "road to Damascus":
". . . Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith." Mosiah 27:14
And if that wasn't enough:
". . . Alma, go thy way, and seek to destroy the church no more, that their prayers may be answered, and this even if thou wilt of thyself be cast off." Mosiah 27:16
It's pretty obvious here that the angel (and we can presume the Lord) was mightily disgusted with Alma le jeune and was emphatically not on his errand because of anything our nefarious young apostate had done. In fact, it appears that the angel was ready for Alma to shine the whole thing off and continue on his merry divisive way.
Playing favorites? Yes, I suppose God does play favorites, but not in the way that you were so quick to shoot off. God most definitely does favor those who pray with faith for that which is right. And it is not at all illogical to venture that Peter and others prayed with similar fervor for the former Saul.
"Yeah, so?" you're thinking, "Who's praying for me? AS IF I care!" More on that in a moment.
Shall we talk about other people who received signs? Our good friend Korihor and a certain Sherem come to mind. No, we don't like the signs that they received - stricken deaf and dumb, then death; or seizure and death. But they were signs, nonetheless.
"Ok," you say, "The Tanners, Eric Kettunen, et al are still kicking. How come Korihor & friends are stricken so quick and they're not?" Have patience, grasshopper. Their signs will come all in due time and it won't be pretty, I assure you.
Then how about our fine young Daedalus? What would it take to melt his wax? Join me as I venture some ideas.
Perhaps the most precious possession any writer has is creativity. Originality. Without that spark, the blank computer screen mocks you. Every new publication by a friend reminds you that you're falling behind. You long to nurture your muse and wonder when in the blazes you can get her to pay the rent. Blame it on how busy your job keeps you. How much time the web site is taking. Perhaps that debt is starting to look more like New Jersey than Rhode Island. The seagulls are getting more wary all the time. I've been to the real Alcatraz. Good analogy.
Isn't it interesting to note that you haven't published a thing since you moved in with Ms. Long in June and decided to liberate yourself from the "frenzied minds" and "foolish traditions" of those wizened old men in SLC? Puzzling evidence . . . two years and all you've got to show is a finished story on your missionary exploits published on the Internet, but scorned by Hollywood (that whore). Why, in the previous two years, 2/1993-2/1995, you published no less than six works (seven if you include Celestial Mechanics, which was written while you were still in Utah) and wrote an as yet unpublished novel. Merely a slump, you say? More like Death Valley, I'd say.
Methinks you're getting a taste of what it's like to lose that gift. The spark. But I for one don't want you to lose it. Beneath that gruff exterior there's someone who's sensitive, who's been down the West 33rd Avenue of life. Someone who's looked straight at the embodiment of what this world has to offer and found out for himself what she is. A lie.
So I'm going to pray for you. And I won't be alone. There are others out there, including a father who was by no means perfect, but loves you more in his own way than you can comprehend. We're going to muster up every ounce of faith we can and prove to you and ourselves that our God is a God of miracles.
And while you may continue to mock, just be looking for that day as you stumble along your post-apostasy road. The day when your telegram from the soul comes via special messenger.
Here, Sean, have a hankie. You've worked yourself up into such a state of self-serving and self-important piety that you're getting it all over yourself.
You know, I'd be more inclined to take your remarks seriously if it weren't for a few facts which you don't happen to have in your possession. First is that, during the period when I wrote most of those works that were (later) published between 1993 and 1996, I was engaging in unholy practices with my girlfriend Roxie three nights out of five. Second, I wrote a significant portion of them at work, on company time, when I should have been debugging my section of WordPerfect 6.0 for DOS. So, that amounts to continual fornication and theft, two activities that in your rendition of the universe should have robbed me of my divine creative spark long before I ever moved in with %@&@^*!!.
Then there's that email of yours that you copied me on last October, not long after I temporarily and ill-advisedly took my site down. You remember it, I'm sure -- long on false piety, short on sense. It was the one you sent to a long list of fellow Saints, in which you told them that their prayers had been answered because I had finally ceased to strive against the Kingdom of God.
You had to copy it to me, didn't you? You had to let me and the whole rest of the world -- well, the portion of it that was important to you, anyway -- see what a faithful, righteous, amd God-fearing man you are. Well, I've seen, all right. They have words to describe the kind of person I've seen. They're not pretty words. They're words like "hypocrite" and "Pharisee" and "whited sepulchre." They're ugly words for an ugly and cruel person that I wouldn't cross the street to shake hands with.
The devil can quote scripture, you know, and so can you, and so can I. I can quote the words of Jesus himself, who wielded those very ugly words as weapons against ugly men like you:
"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments. . . . Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. . . . Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:5, 27, 28, 33.)
You sent that email out to so many people not out of concern for my soul, but so you could "be seen of men." It's lucky for you that there really isn't a hell, because if there were then your own professed god's words would have damned you to it. Have a nice day, asshole.
I'm a liberal 56-year old who thrives on modern rock and triathlons. Not the usual.
Keep up the writing. I wish I had your talent! I'm waiting for more chapters on your life story.
Pat, you help make my life worth living. Rock on!
I'm always laughing so hard when reading your site :-) Well, just wanted to tell you that I've moved my site to a faster server. The address is now:
http://www.et.htwk-leipzig.de/student/mormonen/
Keep up the good work.
Thanks, Gunar! Once again, I urge all of you who read German to visit Gunar's excellent site.
From your mouth to the ears of an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters!
Thanks. I'm glad to be back, too. I really missed playing the part of a shock-jock on the Internet equivalent of talk radio.
Nice to have you back on the airwaves. Congrats on your new job. Glad to see more installments of "Apostasy". You certainly don't stay lonely, judging by all the mail you get. Anyway, I have a few questions about the church if you'll kindly indulge me. My very brief trial period in the church left me curious about some things:
a) How do they account for all of the changes over the years in the revelations - the differences between them in the BOC and the D&C?
b) I noticed a lot of suspicion and cynicism. As an example of suspicion, no one in the ward I attended could believe that I could be friends with a woman without there being "something going on" between us. I mean how paranoid can you be?
c) As such good Christians, why is the favorite subject of so many of them money?
Anyway just a few odd things I noticed during my "free trial offer". I'll close for now. Good to have you back, and a happy 30th to you! Don't get toooooo shitfaced!
Some off-the-cuff answers:
a) The clever ones keep attention of the unclever ones directed away from the Book of Commandments, like magicians performing sleight of hand.
b) The repressed ones project their forbidden desires onto everyone else, thus making themselves feel better about their pitiable lives.
c) Because Mormons have to buy their way into heaven, via tithing. No one gets into the Temple without paying it.
As it happens, I did end up getting toooooo shitfaced on my 30th birthday, for the first and only time in my life, but thanks for the sentiment, anyway.
Did I read correctly that you had a hundred rejections before your first sale? God! I wonder how many good writers gave up and died simply from lack of persistence. That means, I suppose, that I should not be deterred by a measly rejection slip or ninety.
Thanks, Bill. You're an inspiration.
You should not be deterred in the least. You total and mine combined are still a far cry from a record. Write on!
I laughed until I cried when I read your last essay on Mormon Mythology! The "I'm So Special" issue really hit home. I am the mother of two sons and I have never been relieved of hearing how "special" my children are! After all, get this: My sons were not only born "in The One True Church" but "Under the Covenant" are White, American males born in the "Latter Days" to "Mormon Pioneer Settlers" Their "Priesthood lineage" is decended only four generations from Brigham Young himself. Their paternal ancestry is directly decended from Joseph Fielding Smith, and my sons are -- now ain't this awesome -- were born the grandson's of a Stake President. (oh, and they were born in UTAH--wow, huh?) Wow, my sons truly are special, you bet, yes they are!!! What do you suppose the odds of how special MY kids are!?
Far, far less than the odds of life on this planet having arisen spontaneously out of the primoridal muck! Consider yourself a fortunate mother!
I don't know what you were tokin' when you wrote Mormon Mythology - Exhibit 2 - I'm Special . . . but whatever it was, you got any more? Made me feel really special . . . but then . . . Hate to burst your bubble Bro, but you think you're special? Well, I figure I'm probably more special. I mean, it's one thing to be born into the ONE TRUE CHURCH in the LAST DAYS on the most wicked world of all of Heavenly Father's creations (and what about the chances of actually being born in Zion as opposed to, say, L.A.), but it's quite another thing to be born with a REALLY, REALLY special ancestry. I mean, like, how many special people like us can also claim that we have a real live apostle in our lineage??? (Well, actually O.P. [that's Orson Pratt for the folks who aren't quite so special] is dead now, but he lives in our hearts.) Ok, ok, so, there may be some that are more special 'cause their apotle dad or granddad is still alive, but still, methinks it's still pretty special to have O.P. as a great-great granddad. (So what if he had five wives and lots and lots of other little offspring; O.P.'s wife that begat my line was his favorite. Heck, he picked her up while he was on a mission to Scotland.) But that's not all. Not only O.P. is an apostolic ancestor (who also happened to edit the BofM into the current chapters and verses), but also Marriner Wood Merrill was of apostolic dimensions, and what dimensions (spelled F-A-T) they were. (The dimensions, incidentally seemed to get passed on to his posterity more successfully than his apostolic calling.) Ok, so I got TWO, count 'em, TWO apostolic spirit dads looking over me. How many you got? Ready to cry "uncle" yet? Well, for good measure, let me thow some rhythm into the mix. Every time y'all wanna start getting puffed up with pride about how special you think you are, hum a few bars of High on a Mountain Top, or Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words to Each Other, or Welcome, Welcome Sabbath Morning, and remember, there are even fewer folks that can claim Ebenezer . . . So, two apostles and a Tabernacle Choir director/composer . . . whadda ya think. The only thing I can't figure out is . . . why the hell haven't I been translated yet??? I guess God is like the rest of us, He's just saving the best for last.
Love your site Bill. Wish you could find more time for updates. I mean, I take the time to check it out daily. Gotta run. Meet ya on a cloud someday. Give my best to %@&@^*!!.
P.S. If any of you other children of the special O.P. or M.W.W. or E.B. out there are offended by my making light of this shit and wanna call me to repentance, save it. I repented last night, right after I got laid.
Well, I see your MoTab director and two apostles, and raise you a William Clayton, that special fellow who wrote new words to an English tavern song and came up with the hymn that kept our pioneer ancestors schlepping their skinny butts across the plains. That's right -- the lyricist of "Come, Come, Ye Saints" is one of my direct ancestors.
And apparently you followed his admonition last night, right before you repented, you naughty boy!
I'm sure you have received plenty of letters from "concerned" members of the Church, attempting to apologise for all the wrongs the Church may have done to you bla bla bla. And I'm sure you have gotten your fair share of hate mail because of your web site. But I'm a no nonsense kind of person, and I respect a person who tactfully says what's on their mind. Here's what's on my mind. What the hell is your problem with the Church? (My tone of voice and facial expression when saying this mimmics that of Arnold from "Different Strokes") I appreciate you may have many disagreements with Church doctrine, but what about the Church causes you so much consternation as to require you to devote such time and energy to a web published page devoted to focussing simply on the "bad" parts of the Church?
I am truely curious, and again not judging or bashing. Could I maybe encourage you to devote a little pocket of your web site to more possitive aspects of the Church? it doesn't hurt to ask.
P.S. I thought my 1220 on the SATs was pretty good. Yours was ass-kickin'. What was it? 15?? or something? Not bad bruddah.
It's my Web site, and I'll bash if I want to. As for the rest of your questions, I've addressed them ad nauseum elsewhere on the site. Seek and ye shall find.
By the way, you really should see Kaysville if you haven't been back lately, which I doubt you have. It's a booming metropolis!! They even have a McDonalds!!
Good joke! Say hello to Kaysville for me next time you're there. I don't think even the presence of a McDonald's could lure me back.
Um, whoops, sorry. With any luck, that problem is solved now.
By the way, what do you think of the new color scheme? I'm quite pleased with it myself. I call it "Peanut Butter Surprise."
